Steven Gerrard

[maqroll]

If I hear Gerrard say "in a good place" one more time...

[mykeyb]

21 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Just did a quick check as well.

Our current " poor " ppg of 1.29 since Gerrard has come in X an equal games played of 34 ( Equal to the latest teams used as excuses for meltdown ammunition ) , would have us on 43 points, in 9th, on goal difference.

Inconvenient truths.

The good thing about hypotheticals, is that you can use the same hypotheticals to counter other hypotheticals. lol

If only the games were played on paper instead of the pitch

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

19 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

If only the games were played on paper instead of the pitch

Lol, you LITERALLY " played " the whole season out on paper... without including context of current games played to boot

Which is what I responded to.

Make your mind up.

Edited April 24, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[lexicon]

The undeniable truth is that he needs to turn things around.

1 point from 5 games is very poor and being 15th in the league definitely isn't good enough. 

The questions are whether he can turn it around, and if you think he can, how long you give him to try. 

Jury's out with the first question, obviously. As for the second, I really want to see something before the season ends. If we don't see anything, I wouldn't give him the summer. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by lexicon

[Keyblade]

6 hours ago, TRO said:

Are you having a laugh....Frank has transformed Brentford, from a smallish side in stature, with inconsistent tendencies, to a physically equipped team, who are hard to beat....They now have a reputation, of teams not wanting to play them....that is in contrast to Deans hit and miss easy on the eye version.

Look hard and long at the make-up, the stature and the transformation of the job Thomas Frank has done.....He has a different outlook to Dean Smith, to brand them the same, is folly.....Thomas has a tough/durable team now....Dean did not.

Back to us....

I think the owners see clearly what the issues are, but allow managers the freedom to manage.....SG was brought in to change a team that was finding it easy to lose and 2021 as a calendar year is evidence of that.

So far, he hasn't done that much to change it, but I disagree with you.....it is not essentially his team......The make up of this team is still Deans.......sure what SG does with them, is down to him, but its harsh to completely judge him with the tools he has.

I also disagree with this notion of building a team that is impervious to the style of manager, fliting in and out......you usually change managers, for a reason, and those reasons are usually, not winning enough games, so do you restrict the new man an opportunity to effect his methods to change that....or compel him to stick to the exit managers ways......That's ludicrous to me.

Was Klopp the same as Rodgers?......Was Nuno/Conte  the same as Mourinho?......Man U have tried umpteen styles of manager to not much affect.

You can go through all the Premier league teams, and incoming managers wants to change players to their liking.....sure some have bigger jobs than others, some have easier tweaks than others, some need overhauls....it depends on the balance of the team inherited.

Equally, I can't be certain SG will make it with us.....I think he will and despite me still seeing similar team traits as under Smith....I think if he gets the right players in to make the right changes, he can transform us.

Clear outs or mere tweaks, largely depend on how you bought in the first place.....sure other elements come in like coaching, tactics, game plans etc......but if you have bought the wrong players in the first place, tactics, gameplans, become oh so more difficult to get right.

Lets see what he does in the summer and what types he brings in.....then we will have a better picture, of what we have as a manager.......ME, I still favour him to get it right.

I happen to think Recruitment, is one of the biggest elements to get right, in transforming a football team.....so far he has brought in one permanent first team player.

You completely missed my point. I didn't say Frank was the same as Smith. I said that Brentford didn't have to restructure the whole squad in order to suit Frank. Instead he molded the team he had to suit his style.  They sold about 7 players in his first 2 seasons there...2 of them to us incidentally. In other words, 4 of the 7 players sold were unavoidable sales to PL teams.

I'm not necessarily against giving managers free reign to rebuild a team, but they have to show something to earn that. If Antonio Conte walked through this door, he could have the keys to VP for all I care. Gerrard will have had a 3/4 season audition for this, and he hasn't shown anything to suggest he should be given license to rip up and remodel this already expensively assembled squad just to play "his way".

[markavfc40]

17 hours ago, TRO said:

Mark, I think it depends on how you look at the squad....

Which is exactly what I said at the start of my post mate. How you judge Gerrard now will be heavily dependent on how you judge what he inherited.

As said I personally think he inherited a decent squad. One capable of finishing around 10th -12th. He then added one the world's most expensive ever players to that squad and what was/is considered currently one of the Premier Leagues best left backs. 

I have zero doubt that the squad, like every squad outside the top 7 or 8, is lacking in some areas and certainly lacks enough players with a real winners, never say die attitude. Pound for pound though when compared with other squads outside the top 8 I think ours stands up against most.

I think Smith was sacked solely because those above him didn't think he was getting enough from what he had at his disposal. I don't think he was sacked because of his dealings in the transfer market simply because I think Smith's input wouldn't have been the strongest input in that department. I think that belonged to Lange. For what it is worth I think Gerrard will be the overriding voice now in terms of transfers because I don't think Gerrard would have taken the job unless that was the case. He wants to go beyond Villa and will want to be in control of his own destiny in being able to ensure that he can achieve that so will want as much control as possible. 

Given I think the above and believe Smith was sacked because he wasn't getting enough from the squad, and he was rightly sacked for that in my opinion, then my expectation was that Gerrard would get more from this squad. More so since adding the players he did in January. To now find 6 months and 20 odd games in that we really haven't shown any improvement has been disappointing. 

I am not advocating sacking him by the way. Barring failing to win any of our next 6 games he'll rightly get a summer and pre season and then I'll see what the first 10-12 games of next season bring before making any definitive judgement. 

Edited April 25, 2022 by markavfc40

[Tom13]

3 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Lol, you LITERALLY " played " the whole season out on paper... without including context of current games played to boot

Which is what I responded to.

Make your mind up.

Literally played it out on paper? Do you have a camera where he lives?

[lexicon]

31 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Barring failing to win any of our next 6 games he'll rightly get a summer and pre season and then I'll see what the first 10-12 games of next season bring before making any definitive judgement. 

So is that the line in the sand for you? 

I think it's reasonable. I really don't want to waste the summer and a third of the next season because it'll basically mean the whole of next season will be a write off too. 

[mykeyb]

3 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Lol, you LITERALLY " played " the whole season out on paper... without including context of current games played to boot

Which is what I responded to.

Make your mind up.

What on earth are you on about. Brentford are above us now. I was stating that we might finish below them which for the money we have spent is a poor return.

How is that Literally playing the WHOLE season out on paper.

[markavfc40]

15 minutes ago, lexicon said:

So is that the line in the sand for you? 

I think it's reasonable. I really don't want to waste the summer and a third of the next season because it'll basically mean the whole of next season will be a write off too. 

Yes I think so. I think barring a disastrous finish to the season you have to give him the summer/a full pre season and then a third of next season to see what he can do off the back of that.  Obviously to avoid another season being a write of then we need him to start the season well but I think a lot of clubs/managers are in that position at the start of every season. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

7 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

What on earth are you on about. Brentford are above us now. I was stating that we might finish below them which for the money we have spent is a poor return.

How is that Literally playing the WHOLE season out on paper.

That's probably because you skipped the other posts and exchanges made in between the initial post, and that post?

I guess I'll just repeat myself then, we could also technically finish above Wolves, and Newcastle ,as well as multiple other clubs, if we are just throwing out hypotheticals for effect.

It's also conveniently skipping the huge matter of us having played 2 games less.

I also pointed out that if we wanted to get even pettier, we could use SGs current ppg and average it out over playing 34 games and it would have us in 9th with 43 points.

We could also maybe give some credit to our previous manager for our points total before SG came in? Not starting from an equal footing is it?

Neither is your hypothetical. 

You can't use hypotheticals and then shut down my hypothetical because it's not in line with the narrative.

Anyway...

Edited April 24, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Keyblade said:

You completely missed my point. I didn't say Frank was the same as Smith. I said that Brentford didn't have to restructure the whole squad in order to suit Frank. Instead he molded the team he had to suit his style.  They sold about 7 players in his first 2 seasons there...2 of them to us incidentally. In other words, 4 of the 7 players sold were unavoidable sales to PL teams.

I'm not necessarily against giving managers free reign to rebuild a team, but they have to show something to earn that. If Antonio Conte walked through this door, he could have the keys to VP for all I care. Gerrard will have had a 3/4 season audition for this, and he hasn't shown anything to suggest he should be given license to rip up and remodel this already expensively assembled squad just to play "his way".

I must have done, and apologies if I did.

The fact that SG was appointed in the first place.....gives him licence to bring in his own players, otherwise, there was no point in it....The owners would have known that.

IIRC he had an arduous interview lasting hours, and I would imagine, very few stones left unturned. We have to give the club some credit for due dilligence, which I'm sure they engaged in.

I understand your reasoning, but Antonio Conte, has  a CV to look beyond us, we have to understand our current status.....All managerial appointments are a gamble, to some degree, we have appointed a young manager, learning his trade, if it was a player, everyone would be behind that.

I believe more in a manager building a balanced side, not so much to his style, but inevitably a bit of both......All managers want a winning team, so there isn't that many different styles to do that....its about getting round pegs in round holes, not gettting round pegs in square holes, which we have been doing.

I do get we all see things through our own lens, and subsequently, our opinions vary.....but while The squad he inherited was decent, I think its imbalanced and thats where the crux of the problem lies, in my eyes.

The second highlighted line is like saying " A kid can't go to swimmimg lessons, until he can learn to swim"........Isn't the whole point of giving him funds, because he needs players in positions, the current ones can't play".....If someone was expecting him to come in and coach the previous managers team in to success, I think that was wishful thinking.....Whatever the results previously, Dean was not a bad manager, just had too many of the same players, to create the necessary balance between attack and defence.

I think the debate about us needing a competent No 6 has reached foreign shores, such is the amount of fans involved in it and many agree, we need a quality defensive midfielder, if SG hasn't got one at his disposal for the majority of his 21 games, how does he compensate for that?..The players he has given the role to, can't do it with any aplomb...and the previous manager had the same problem.

The expensively assembled squad, is not down to SG, and its wrong to suggest, it is......SG's turn will come, then the judgment will follow and thats when is becomes fair.

Your last line is a bit of a paradox for me......If he showed the confidence that maybe your looking for by winning most of our games, why would we need any new players.....If you think some of the players we have are of merchantable quality to challenge for Europe, Then I have to respectfully disagree.

[useless]

I don't know if I really think this but it's a thought that has just fleeted across my mind like the shadow of a Wandering Albatross fleeting over a desolate shore at night, I can foresee three scenarios, if we have a disasterous end to the season then he will lose his job as next season is too important to take that kind of risk, but I don't think that will happen, if we have just an okay end to the season he will keep his job, but maybe we will be a little more cautious with how much of a say we give him in our transfer dealings, knowing that there's a possibility we might have to make a change in the middle of next season, if we do well then obviously he keeps his job and maybe gets more of a say in our transfer deals.

To be honest now that I've written it down it will probably be like the second one in terms of transfers whatever happens, Lange will play an important role for sure.

[mykeyb]

6 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

That's probably because you skipped the other posts and exchanges made in between the initial post, and that post?

I guess I'll just repeat myself then, we could also technically finish above Wolves, and Newcastle ,as well as multiple other clubs, if we are just throwing out hypotheticals for effect.

It's also conveniently skipping the huge matter of us having played 2 games less.

I also pointed out that if we wanted to get even pettier, we could use SGs current ppg and average it out over playing 34 games and it would have us in 9th with 43 points.

We could also maybe give some credit to our previous manager for our points total before SG came in? Not starting from an equal footing is it?

Neither is your hypothetical. 

You can't use hypotheticals and then shut down my hypothetical because it's not in line with the narrative.

Anyway...

Your right we could finish above all those clubs, we could still be relegated. I don't see either scenario playing out to be honest. Not sure where DS even comes into our discussion.

I tell you what let's revisit this conversation at the end of the season and see who finishes above and below us and then we can discuss PPG etc.

Until then I am done.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

7 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

Your right we could finish above all those clubs, we could still be relegated. I don't see either scenario playing out to be honest. Not sure where DS even comes into our discussion.

I tell you what let's revisit this conversation at the end of the season and see who finishes above and below us and then we can discuss PPG etc.

Until then I am done.

I only brought Deano into it, because as I explained, the " finishing " position wouldn't necessarily be a fair indication of just SGs performance either.

Seeing as he never started with us at the beginning of the season, and wasn't in charge for 11 games.

Our points total before that was poor, hence why SG is even here.

Not equal footing. ( And this is not taking all the other variables into consideration )

Edited April 24, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[mykeyb]

5 hours ago, mykeyb said:

For those who think he is doing a good job. We could well finish behind Brentford. How many of their players would make our starting eleven.

 

4 hours ago, mykeyb said:

If only the games were played on paper instead of the pitch

Jamaican Villan- these are my two posts where you have accessed me of playing out our season on paper. I haven't omitted anything. You have responded in between.
 

Care to point out where I have played out our entire season on paper.
 

[OutByEaster?]

In terms of assessing managers, there's an interesting period coming up this year - football has two breaks of a month or more in the next seven months - the club will assess where we are in the summer, and for what it's worth I think Gerrard will have the full backing of the board and owners throughout the summer, but we'll also have a break of five weeks in November for the World Cup.

That's going to be a really odd time for domestic football and I think a lot of clubs will take the opportunity to evaluate where they are during that break - we'll have played a dozen or so Premier League games and we'll be in a position to see how the summer went and whether there is progress. 

I think Gerrard's aim should be to be able to go on a nice relaxing holiday in November with his family, confident that he's put the foundations of a good season and a job well done in place.

 

[OutByEaster?]

Keep it to Gerrard please rather than speculation on other managers  - thank you.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

15 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

 

Jamaican Villan- these are my two posts where you have accessed me of playing out our season on paper. I haven't omitted anything. You have responded in between.
 

Care to point out where I have played out our entire season on paper.
 

Apologies if you are getting caught in cross fires of me trying to respond to multiple posters in individual posts then 

I genuinely hate how defensive I feel I have had to be re SG.

I just really don't like all the negativity, it feels as if we are fighting against ourselves, as in the club.

Anyway. UTV.

Even when I argue aggressively, I don't  mean for anyone to take anything as an attack , and try not to take things too serious myself.

After all it's " virtual mates " arguing about football. Lol

Edited April 24, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[TRO]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

Which is exactly what I said at the start of my post mate. How you judge Gerrard now will be heavily dependent on how you judge what he inherited.

As said I personally think he inherited a decent squad. One capable of finishing around 10th -12th. He then added one the world's most expensive ever players to that squad and what was/is considered currently one of the Premier Leagues best left backs. 

I have zero doubt that the squad, like every squad outside the top 7 or 8, is lacking in some areas and certainly lacks enough players with a real winners, never say die attitude. Pound for pound though when compared with other squads outside the top 8 I think our stands up against most.

I think Smith was sacked solely because those above him didn't think he was getting enough from what he had at his disposal. I don't think he was sacked because of his dealings in the transfer market simply because I think Smith's input wouldn't have been the strongest input in that department. I think that belonged to Lange. For what it is worth I think Gerrard will be the overriding voice now in terms of transfers because I don't think Gerrard would have taken the job unless that was the case. He wants to go beyond Villa and will want to be in control of his own destiny in being able to ensure that he can achieve that so will want as much control as possible. 

Given I think the above and believe Smith was sacked because he wasn't getting enough from the squad, and he was rightly sacked for that in my opinion, then my expectation was that Gerrard would get more from this squad. More so since adding the players he did in January. To now find 6 months and 20 odd games in that we really haven't shown any improvement has been disappointing. 

I am not advocating sacking him by the way. Barring failing to win any of our next 6 games he'll rightly get a summer and pre season and then I'll see what the first 10-12 games of next season bring before making any definitive judgement. 

For my sins Mark, I think the squad is imbalanced, which is subtely different to decent.....I too think its decent, but too many similar players to frustrate a balance.

• In the guise the team is in, I think 10th could be achieved, but not surprised if it didn't
• Its ok landing one of the worlds most expensive players i.e Man U have done it, with Ronaldo......but if its not the most pressing position to fill only limited succes will be gained.....and We and them, have done that.
• I think in January Eddie Howe addressed Newcastles weaknesses, better than SG did with us, that is not saying Eddie is a better manager overall, but he did identify their weak bits better than we did with ours.....Digne and Coutinho are undoutedly good players and better than what we have.....but was they what we wanted?.....I have my doubts, albeit Phil has been instrumental in us winning games we might not have otherwise won......Had we kept Targett, would we have done any worse?....even if Digne is a better footballer.
• I don't know to what degree Dean was involved in transfers, but if it was not much.....isn't that in it self enough to question the control of the manager and enough to breed doubts in the minds of the hierarchy as to the ability of the manager to manage.....I would guess that many factors were at Play, when Dean was relieved of his job.I agree with you,  I would expect any ambitious, strong willed manager, to not agree to restrictions on his authority in respect of transer activities , if he is to be held responsible for team results.
• I will say again.....whilst I was happy with the January signings in isolation, in terms of the team, I was not surprised the collective enhancement was not met.....again it wasn't what we needed in terms of priority.
• I can once again agree with your reference to the disappointment in the results, but judging by some of the elements of the performances, I still see some of the same traits I saw under Dean Smith, so I am not surprised as some might be.
• I too am not advocating him being Sacked, I think we would be a laughing stock, if we did.....but judging the team like I do, I don't see this magic turn around, until we get the right players in the right positions to make it feasible.....This peaks and troughs style of results will continue, I fear.

Roll on the summer, and fingers crossed.