Formula One - 2021

[HKP90]

9 hours ago, YouUnastanFren said:

The normal laps should give them his maximum late braking point and maximum apex speed.

If he's dived underneath making the corner sharper and his apex speed is still higher than usual then it's a slam dunk penalty then surely? Defending (legally) by taking the inside line means you travel less distance to the apex but necessitates braking harder and/or trail braking longer to take the corner more slowly and using your car as a roadblock to prevent the overtake.

If you're hitting an early apex from a narrow line faster than you hit the late apex on your optimum line then you can't stay on the track without braking well past the apex. If he's done that then that should be more than enough evidence to show he intentionally left the track to gain an advantage.

Great post. 

[BOF]

9 hours ago, YouUnastanFren said:

The normal laps should give them his maximum late braking point and maximum apex speed.

That's not true. The normal laps give him his ideal braking point which maximises his exit speed for the next straight. That's not his intention when defending his position. He will go in later and faster in order to maintain (or retrieve) track position over Hamilton but in the process compromise his line and therefore his exit speed and subsequent straight. It's not the fastest way through the corner (otherwise he'd do it all the time) but it is the way you keep speed up on entry, keep the other guy behind you and then mop up the mess on the exit while still leading the race.

[HKP90]

10 minutes ago, BOF said:

That's not true. The normal laps give him his ideal braking point which maximises his exit speed for the next straight. That's not his intention when defending his position. He will go in later and faster in order to maintain (or retrieve) track position over Hamilton but in the process compromise his line and therefore his exit speed and subsequent straight. It's not the fastest way through the corner (otherwise he'd do it all the time) but it is the way you keep speed up on entry, keep the other guy behind you and then mop up the mess on the exit while still leading the race.

But would the key not be the subsequent braking, as he'd still have to brake harder to compensate for the faster, narrower entry? If he's not done that he had no intention of keeping within track limits. 

[BOF]

8 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

But would the key not be the subsequent braking, as he'd still have to brake harder to compensate for the faster, narrower entry? If he's not done that he had no intention of keeping within track limits. 

Once he'd 'successfully' maintained his position by screeching (not literally) into the braking zone and forcing both of them onto the run-off, they were both slowing down at that point to gather themselves for the exit. The desperate move to maintain position by diving down the inside way beyond the braking point was gathered up in the aftermath. He wasn't braking harder beacuse he didn't want a lock-up, same reason he didn't turn in too steep, he just broke for longer and they both used the run-off.

What we don't want is for this to become the norm. For it to become the thing you do when you want to defend a position. Unfortunately they've set a precedent now. Merc could say 'what's good for the goose...' but it wouldn't surprise me if the FIA now re-drew their guidelines in the aftermath of this so that it doesn't happen again, giving Max his one 'free hit' and no-one being allowed to repeat it.

[HKP90]

2 minutes ago, BOF said:

Once he'd 'successfully' maintained his position by screeching (not literally) into the braking zone and forcing both of them onto the run-off, they were both slowing down at that point to gather themselves for the exit. The desperate move to maintain position by diving down the inside way beyond the braking point was gathered up in the aftermath. He wasn't braking harder beacuse he didn't want a lock-up, same reason he didn't turn in too steep, he just broke for longer and they both used the run-off.

What we don't want is for this to become the norm. For it to become the thing you do when you want to defend a position. Unfortunately they've set a precedent now. Merc could say 'what's good for the goose...' but it wouldn't surprise me if the FIA now re-drew their guidelines in the aftermath of this so that it doesn't happen again, giving Max his one 'free hit' and no-one being allowed to repeat it.

Agreed. Warnings then stiff penalty. 

Similar thing happened at Monza, but I think that, despite Max's penalty, there was possibly more of a case to answer from Lewis's perspective.  

[BOF]

3 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

Agreed. Warnings then stiff penalty. 

Similar thing happened at Monza, but I think that, despite Max's penalty, there was possibly more of a case to answer from Lewis's perspective.  

The odd reaction from fans about Monza was people giving out about his behaviour after the accident. Despite the fact he clearly looked across at Lewis and saw Lewis still sawing away at the steering wheel trying to get the car freed as he was walking away from his wreck. The one thing Max possibly should have had more scrutiny over was casually walking along the side of a live track and IINM walking on the tarmac itself. That's a massive no-no. The one thing you could argue is a driver is not necessarily thinking rationally in the aftermath of a crash, so again you can't hammer him for it, but it wasn't exactly a high speed one. I'd say it was more adrenaline and anger than it was shock that was coursing through him. He was clearly in '**** all y'all' mode at that point.

[HKP90]

7 minutes ago, BOF said:

The odd reaction from fans about Monza was people giving out about his behaviour after the accident. Despite the fact he clearly looked across at Lewis and saw Lewis still sawing away at the steering wheel trying to get the car freed as he was walking away from his wreck. The one thing Max possibly should have had more scrutiny over was casually walking along the side of a live track and IINM walking on the tarmac itself. That's a massive no-no. The one thing you could argue is a driver is not necessarily thinking rationally in the aftermath of a crash, so again you can't hammer him for it, but it wasn't exactly a high speed one. I'd say it was more adrenaline and anger than it was shock that was coursing through him. He was clearly in '**** all y'all' mode at that point.

Yeah. Think he did walk on the track from my recollection. 

Funny though, I was watching an old race on F1TV the other day,  from the mid-90s I think, and there was an accident on the outside of a bend. There were yellow flags, but the Marshalls were dealing with the car while the rest of the field were careening past on the inside. It was insanely dangerous. Nearly spat my coffee out.   

[BOF]

2 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

Yeah. Think he did walk on the track from my recollection. 

Funny though, I was watching an old race on F1TV the other day,  from the mid-90s I think, and there was an accident on the outside of a bend. There were yellow flags, but the Marshalls were dealing with the car while the rest of the field were careening past on the inside. It was insanely dangerous. Nearly spat my coffee out.   

Oh God, old races were insane. Even not-terribly-dangerous stuff isn't allowed now, like double-waved yellows with marshalls on the track and the drivers being allowed to tippy-toe past that area and then plough on again afterwards. Double-waved has changed how it functions now. It's still 'slow down and prepare to stop', but they're never put in a position where they might have to stop any more, because that situation would instantly be a full safety car.

[YouUnastanFren]

1 hour ago, BOF said:

That's not true. The normal laps give him his ideal braking point which maximises his exit speed for the next straight. That's not his intention when defending his position. He will go in later and faster in order to maintain (or retrieve) track position over Hamilton but in the process compromise his line and therefore his exit speed and subsequent straight. It's not the fastest way through the corner (otherwise he'd do it all the time) but it is the way you keep speed up on entry, keep the other guy behind you and then mop up the mess on the exit while still leading the race.

This the point though, this is only allowed as a defence if you can do it while staying on the track. You can't just plough through the corner and miss the exit by 20 yards and take another car with you. The braking point he usually used was the latest point he could brake while working the throttle up right off the apex and staying on the track.

If he attacked the corner from a narrower angle and braked as later or later he has two options for after the apex: continue braking far past/use very little throttle on the exit and lose speed but stay on track or accelerate as normal off the corner and leave the track.

I saw a telemetry overlay video that implied he stopped braking just after the apex and accelerated normally directly off the track to keep Hamilton behind. The more I see the more I am convinced it should be a 5 second penalty. It's not quite Rosberg in Austria level of obvious but it's getting there.

Edit - Here's the video

Would be nice to have it be longer so it includes the usual braking point, turn in angle and acceleration but it's clear to see from the throttle that no attempt was made to stay on track despite it being very possible.

Edited November 17, 2021 by YouUnastanFren

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

19 minutes ago, YouUnastanFren said:

The more I see the more I am convinced it should be a 5 second penalty

Agreed,  also if this was at Monaco what then,  is it OK for Verstappen to do the exact same thing there with the walls ?

[OutByEaster?]

58 minutes ago, BOF said:

He was clearly in '**** all y'all' mode at that point.

I think the problem with Max is that he's always in this mode.

His mentality is that because he's the best driver, no one should ever be able to pass him, it's a liberty and he's therefore perfectly justified in any actions he takes to avoid it - Max has had multiple incidences this season where he's put his car into defensive positions that are (if you'll excuse the pun) difficult to defend. It's how he drives. It's how he is. In his head, there's something that is unable to process that someone might overtake him in normal circumstances and so he's forced into aggressive action because of the absolute front of the people that insist on trying it - to me he always seems appalled that they would even try, that it's somehow a fault in their thinking, a glitch in the universe, and then he's baffled when they don't understand his attempts to maintain a natural order. 

 

 

[YouUnastanFren]

Some good analysis of it here from Jolyon Palmer.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.jolyon-palmers-analysis-did-verstappen-deserve-a-penalty-for-clash-with-hamilton-at-interlagos.1716614097935388221.html

He does also mention analysing the telemetry but that part of the video is behind the F1TV paywall by the sound of it.

Edit - He also shows us a clip of the Rosberg one in Austria and it is far worse than I remembered. Absolutely comical, this one was nowhere near that level of obviousness, I was wrong.

Edited November 17, 2021 by YouUnastanFren

[BOF]

3 hours ago, YouUnastanFren said:

This the point though, this is only allowed as a defence if you can do it while staying on the track. You can't just plough through the corner and miss the exit by 20 yards and take another car with you.

The more I see the more I am convinced it should be a 5 second penalty.

I don't think anyone is arguing that a 5 second penalty wouldn't have been; if not the right thing; certainly something that no-one would have thought unreasonable had it happened.  The argument was whether the whole running off the track was pre-meditated/dangerous before the event or whether the initial part was 'only' desperation and the rest was kinda worked out on the fly.  I think what he did was very hard racing. I think he stepped over the line. I don't think you should be doing that and I think on balance it deserved a 5 second penalty regardless of whether the consequences were deliberate or not. Ultimately it forced Hamilton off the track and was defending what became an indefensible corner (legally). But let's not overstate it either.  It was very hard racing between 2 title contenders. These are the battles we'll talk about in twenty years. The Senna v Prost. We don't want a pair of fannies asking 'after you, no after you' either. These get us out of our seats and there does need to be a bit of 'let them race'. Be careful what you wish for. People get emotive about this stuff which is the fun of sport, and then in the next breath they ask for it to be stopped. Hamilton needs pantomime villain Max and vice versa. This has been the best season I can remember in decades. I wouldn't change a thing. Watching Toto lose his cool in the pits too is fantastic. It's all gold

[a m ole]

The main part for me that hints to it being deliberate shenanigans is when he comes back on to the throttle, he’s still in the corner and slowing down and steering left, then accelerates OFF the track. If you’re under steering and trying to make the corner, you don’t hit the gas.

[YouUnastanFren]

4 minutes ago, BOF said:

I don't think anyone is arguing that a 5 second penalty wouldn't have been; if not the right thing; certainly something that no-one would have thought unreasonable had it happened.  The argument was whether the whole running off the track was pre-meditated/dangerous before the event or whether the initial part was 'only' desperation and the rest was kinda worked out on the fly.  I think what he did was very hard racing. I think he stepped over the line. I don't think you should be doing that and I think on balance it deserved a 5 second penalty regardless of whether the consequences were deliberate or not. Ultimately it forced Hamilton off the track and was defending what became an indefensible corner (legally). But let's not overstate it either.  It was very hard racing between 2 title contenders. These are the battles we'll talk about in twenty years. The Senna v Prost. We don't want a pair of fannies asking 'after you, no after you' either. These get us out of our seats and there does need to be a bit of 'let them race'. Be careful what you wish for. People get emotive about this stuff which is the fun of sport, and then in the next breath they ask for it to be stopped. Hamilton needs pantomime villain Max and vice versa. This has been the best season I can remember in decades. I wouldn't change a thing. Watching Toto lose his cool in the pits too is fantastic. It's all gold

Completely agree about the hard racing and about how good this season has been. Best since 2012 I'd say.

I just would like the current rules enforced accurately because if they're not I think it will actually put people off attempting overtakes. If drivers can force off anyone who tries to overtake them without penalty then that is all we are going to see.

I am hyped for next season's cars that should hopefully allow closer racing and if we can be in a position where racing and defending hard within the confines of the track are condoned and encouraged by the officials then it could be the best season ever, provided one team doesn't have a much better car than the rest of course.

[Straggler]

2 hours ago, BOF said:

I don't think anyone is arguing that a 5 second penalty wouldn't have been; if not the right thing; certainly something that no-one would have thought unreasonable had it happened.  The argument was whether the whole running off the track was pre-meditated/dangerous before the event or whether the initial part was 'only' desperation and the rest was kinda worked out on the fly.  I think what he did was very hard racing. I think he stepped over the line. I don't think you should be doing that and I think on balance it deserved a 5 second penalty regardless of whether the consequences were deliberate or not. Ultimately it forced Hamilton off the track and was defending what became an indefensible corner (legally). But let's not overstate it either.  It was very hard racing between 2 title contenders. These are the battles we'll talk about in twenty years. The Senna v Prost. We don't want a pair of fannies asking 'after you, no after you' either. These get us out of our seats and there does need to be a bit of 'let them race'. Be careful what you wish for. People get emotive about this stuff which is the fun of sport, and then in the next breath they ask for it to be stopped. Hamilton needs pantomime villain Max and vice versa. This has been the best season I can remember in decades. I wouldn't change a thing. Watching Toto lose his cool in the pits too is fantastic. It's all gold

Yep, It is all but impossible to prove intent from the footage, but the results are the results.  To use a footballing analogy, if you dive into a tackle and arrive late taking out the person in possession of the ball it is a foul, and it is penalised.  It matters not if the intent was always to get the ball if the ball is missed.  I have the same feeling about this one.  I don't see enough here to say for sure that it was deliberate and worthy of a more stringent penalty, but a 5-second slap on the wrist seems about right.  To let it go is to invite other people to do the same thing down the line, and how many matches have we seen where the first few bad tackles go unpunished, and the ref ends up losing control as everyone thinks that they get one 'free' one. 

Totally agree on the quality of the racing too, Brazil was so much fun to watch and even more thrilling in the context of an amazing season.

I'm trying to work out which car is most suited for the last 3 tracks.  It looks to my uneducated eye like one for Red Bull, one for Mercedes and one pretty even.  With the wild cards of technical problems, tyres, penalties, accidents, safety cars, and all the rest I'm hooked in hard for what is to come.

 

[OutByEaster?]

If it's a tie, can we decide it with twelve rounds of championship boxing between Toto Wollf and Christian Horner, live from Bethnal Green?

 

[foreveryoung]

No doubt it should have been penalised. Hamilton was as good as past Max, Max didn't even attempt to lock the steering over, which he needed to, but probably would have spun out.  I wouldn't be happy if I was Toto either, the fact they listened to Horner, then called off the investigation, although they know what's going on. 

It's obvious they turned the Merc engine up a bit, with DRS it was 25-30 kph quicker on the straights, lets hope they can do it for the next race and show Max who the Champion is.

[sidcow]

10 hours ago, BOF said:

up on entry, keep the other guy behind you and then mop up the mess on the exit

[BOF]