Freedom for Tooting! And other similar nutty fringe communities

[ml1dch]

 

Lots of wailing in the (strangely, heavily Scottish) Conservative press...

Edited March 22, 2021 by ml1dch

[bickster]

41 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

 

Lots of wailing in the (strangely, heavily Scottish) Conservative press...

Quality idiotic patronisning tweet fromLaura K in response. Here's the full report if you want to read it.... after he's just sceeenshotted the conclusions to it.

[Davkaus]

Now that she's been found not to have broken the code, which would definitely have been an offence to resign for, perhaps the Tory sympathisers the media can turn their attention to Patel?

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

On 16/03/2021 at 13:33, chrisp65 said:

I don’t know if anyone remembers that ‘northern’ Independence Party we had a chat about a few months back? It mostly centred around whether it was real or a joke, and whether their lines around Northumberland were accurate.

 

They’re standing a candidate in Hartlepool. So it’ll be a chance to see if they’re at the Count Binface end of the spectrum, or if they actually have something constructive to say. I appreciate that might be slightly harsh on Count Binface.

 

Thought I'd drag this post up from last week, as I've been watching them on Twitter since I saw this, and it looks like they may actually be gaining some steam, although I admit it's hard to try to figure out just how much of that is translating out of the twitter bubble and also how much I may be blinded by my own bias as I would love for them to get traction.

But a few interesting things that I've noticed;

- They've already gained 33k followers on Twitter, 10k of which were in the past week. For comparison, Lawrence Fox's Reclaim party has 45k, with a two month headstart and multiple National TV interviews to cry about how he was being cancelled, whereas I have seen barely anything outside of this thread and twitter about the NIP, and they could reach the same total within a few weeks if their current rate doesn't slow down. Again however, it is difficult to see how much this will translate outside of the twitter bubble. (Question for the Twitter users on here, have you seen the FreeTheNorth or NorthernIndependence hashtags trending? Or is that just my algorithms?)

- Andy Burnham (or at least one of his staff) retweeted a #NorthernIndepence tweet, which has since been un-retweeted, and liked a tweet from the NIP account offering to work together, which last time I checked was still there.

- It looks like Thelma Walker who was Labour MP for Colne Valley from 2017-2019 will be selected to run in Hartlepool, and they have been trying to "poach" Labour councillors as well. A slight caveat here though, they haven't actually been registered yet as a party, but say they are awaiting approval from the Electoral commission. If they aren't registered in time, they say they'll back an independant and register them at a later date.

- They want to stand candidates in the Liverpool local elections and have been asking for Liverpudlians who would want to be nominated. (I imagine they would stand in all Northern local elections, but they're currently hammering the council takeover pretty hard).

- Rumours have been going around that 1) Labour activists have been telling people in Hartlepool that the NIP are anti-Brexit and pro-Migration, which the NIP have claimed is not true, although they say they are anti-Migrant Lies, and that Westminster is at fault for the Norths issues, not migrants, so perhaps what Labour said is only half true, albeit twisting the point, but that's just politics. And 2) that there are genuine concerns within Labour HQ that the NIP could split the vote in Hartlepool and pull in a lot of the younger voters in the area, which for me kind of begs the question, if you're worried a left wing party will split your voter base, why seemingly work so hard to ostracise them? To me, if both rumours even have a hint of truth, it suggest to me that Labour are very worried that the NIP could become a sreious contender in the North, not just a joke party.

- Outside of twitter, although again a somewhat unreliable way to gauge actual support, with the bookies they are currently in the region of 20/1-50/1, with all but one site putting them above both Reform (Brexit) and the Lib Dems (BetFair are a massive outlier having the Lib Dems at 17/2). On top of that, currently 31% of all bets have been put on them, which is slightly higher than Labour's 30% and just behind the Tories 33.33%. It will be interesting to see how that changes closer to the by-election and if any of this will be reflected in the polling.

- In terms of feasibility, the North has a bigger economy than Sweden and the government (Actually, this was an independent thinktank, not the government) has stated that an independent North would be the 10th largest economy in Europe. It is also bigger than Scotland, Wales and NI combined, all of which have their own independence campaigns that seem to be getting ever closer and closer to independence (or Unification with Ireland in NI's case). They would also have bigger economies than nations such as Denmark, Finland, Czechia and Romania, all of which have Universal Heathcare, Free University and Nationalised Railways.

This ended up being a bit longer than I anticipated, and I wasn't sure whether to post in here or the fringe parties thread, so apologies to the mods if it's in the wrong place, but I think there's the potential they could be a serious surprise in Hartlepool, whether that be actually winning (massive longshot) or by just managing to get third place (seems plausable to me).

 

Personally, I really like them and hope they do well, even if it's at the expense of Labour. I've always been centre-left/left wing, but it wasn't until I moved up north for Uni (first Salford, then Northumbria) that I really solidified my left wing views. I thought I knew what the poorest places in the UK were like growing up in the midlands, at most 20 minutes away from some really rough areas, but when I went to Uni, I realised just how bad this country's poverty problem was, and it was shocking to see so many of those areas left behind. For me, I still feel like the lessons from the referendum haven't been learned by either major party. Whilst the Tories are riding the Brexit wave currently, it will only last so long until people realise they are being ignored just like they have been for the past 4 decades, whereas if Labour really believe that the lesson from the past 5 years is that they need more flag waving, I can't see them ever getting back in to power, especially since it seems pretty obvious to me that the 2019 election was a vote primarily on Brexit and not policy.

 

Saying all this, I'm fully expecting them to get about 700 votes and not even get a look in, I hope not though. Plus it's made me kind of want a Mercian Independence Party too!

Edited March 25, 2021 by MessiWillSignForVilla

[Jareth]

13 minutes ago, MessiWillSignForVilla said:

Thought I'd drag this post up from last week, as I've been watching them on Twitter since I saw this, and it looks like they may actually be gaining some steam, although I admit it's hard to try to figure out just how much of that is translating out of the twitter bubble and also how much I may be blinded by my own bias as I would love for them to get traction.

But a few interesting things that I've noticed;

- They've already gained 33k followers on Twitter, 10k of which were in the past week. For comparison, Lawrence Fox's Reclaim party has 45k, with a two month headstart and multiple National TV interviews to cry about how he was being cancelled, whereas I have seen barely anything outside of this thread and twitter about the NIP, and they could reach the same total within a few weeks if their current rate doesn't slow down. Again however, it is difficult to see how much this will translate outside of the twitter bubble. (Question for the Twitter users on here, have you seen the FreeTheNorth or NorthernIndependence hashtags trending? Or is that just my algorithms?)

- Andy Burnham (or at least one of his staff) retweeted a #NorthernIndepence tweet, which has since been un-retweeted, and liked a tweet from the NIP account offering to work together, which last time I checked was still there.

- It looks like Thelma Walker who was Labour MP for Colne Valley from 2017-2019 will be selected to run in Hartlepool, and they have been trying to "poach" Labour councillors as well. A slight caveat here though, they haven't actually been registered yet as a party, but say they are awaiting approval from the Electoral commission. If they aren't registered in time, they say they'll back an independant and register them at a later date.

- They want to stand candidates in the Liverpool local elections and have been asking for Liverpudlians who would want to be nominated. (I imagine they would stand in all Northern local elections, but they're currently hammering the council takeover pretty hard).

- Rumours have been going around that 1) Labour activists have been telling people in Hartlepool that the NIP are anti-Brexit and pro-Migration, which the NIP have claimed is not true, although they say they are anti-Migrant Lies, and that Westminster is at fault for the Norths issues, not migrants, so perhaps what Labour said is only half true, albeit twisting the point, but that's just politics. And 2) that there are genuine concerns within Labour HQ that the NIP could split the vote in Hartlepool and pull in a lot of the younger voters in the area, which for me kind of begs the question, if you're worried a left wing party will split your voter base, why seemingly work so hard to ostracise them? To me, if both rumours even have a hint of truth, it suggest to me that Labour are very worried that the NIP could become a sreious contender in the North, not just a joke party.

- Outside of twitter, although again a somewhat unreliable way to gauge actual support, with the bookies they are currently in the region of 20/1-50/1, with all but one site putting them above both Reform (Brexit) and the Lib Dems (BetFair are a massive outlier having the Lib Dems at 17/2). On top of that, currently 31% of all bets have been put on them, which is slightly higher than Labour's 30% and just behind the Tories 33.33%. It will be interesting to see how that changes closer to the by-election and if any of this will be reflected in the polling.

- In terms of feasibility, the North has a bigger economy than Sweden and the government has stated that an independent North would be the 10th largest economy in Europe. It is also bigger than Scotland, Wales and NI combined, all of which have their own independence campaigns that seem to be getting ever closer and closer to independence (or Unification with Ireland in NI's case). They would also have bigger economies than nations such as Denmark, Finland, Czechia and Romania, all of which have Universal Heathcare, Free University and Nationalised Railways.

This ended up being a bit longer than I anticipated, and I wasn't sure whether to post in here or the fringe parties thread, so apologies to the mods if it's in the wrong place, but I think there's the potential they could be a serious surprise in Hartlepool, whether that be actually winning (massive longshot) or by just managing to get third place (seems plausable to me).

 

Personally, I really like them and hope they do well, even if it's at the expense of Labour. I've always been centre-left/left wing, but it wasn't until I moved up north for Uni (first Salford, then Northumbria) that I really solidified my left wing views. I thought I knew what the poorest places in the UK were like growing up in the midlands, at most 20 minutes away from some really rough areas, but when I went to Uni, I realised just how bad this countries poverty problem was, and it was shocking to see so many of those areas left behind. For me, I still feel like the lessons from the referendum haven't been learned by either major party. Whilst the Tories are riding the Brexit wave currently, it will only last so long until people realise they are being ignored just like they have been for the past 4 decades, whereas if Labour really believe that the lesson from the past 5 years is that they need more flag waving, I can't see them ever getting back in to power, especially since it seems pretty obvious to me that the 2019 election was a vote primarily on Brexit and not policy.

 

Saying all this, I'm fully expecting them to get about 700 votes and not even get a look in, I hope not though. Plus it's made me kind of want a Mercian Independence Party too!

Think it just goes to show how many disaffected normally Labour supporters there are out there who are waiting for a cause to come along for them to vote for, knowing otherwise its just more Tory crap forever. The North reject the tories, Scotland do too, so do Wales mostly - good luck to the NIP!

[Lichfield Dean]

27 minutes ago, MessiWillSignForVilla said:

 

- In terms of feasibility, the North has a bigger economy than Sweden and the government has stated that an independent North would be the 10th largest economy in Europe. It is also bigger than Scotland, Wales and NI combined, all of which have their own independence campaigns that seem to be getting ever closer and closer to independence (or Unification with Ireland in NI's case). They would also have bigger economies than nations such as Denmark, Finland, Czechia and Romania, all of which have Universal Heathcare, Free University and Nationalised Railways.

What defines "the North" in this calculation? And where would it leave the Midlands (if not included as part of the North)?

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

7 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Think it just goes to show how many disaffected normally Labour supporters there are out there who are waiting for a cause to come along for them to vote for, knowing otherwise its just more Tory crap forever. The North reject the tories, Scotland do too, so do Wales mostly - good luck to the NIP!

That's my take away from them too. There's seems to be an assumption that the North is actually right wing because of Brexit, when I think in reality, many Northern voters just despise Westminster and just want their voices to be heard, so will support anyone willing to help their voices be heard.

[Jareth]

2 minutes ago, Lichfield Dean said:

What defines "the North" in this calculation? And where would it leave the Midlands (if not included as part of the North)?

(no idea if accurate)

[MessiWillSignForVilla]

19 minutes ago, Lichfield Dean said:

What defines "the North" in this calculation? And where would it leave the Midlands (if not included as part of the North)?

I think it's based off of this map, with the yellow constituencies being "the North", which itself is based off the historial boundaries for the Kingdom of Northumbria, hence bits of Lincolnshire and Derbyshire which are more typically in the Midlands.

Although the actual Government report (Thinktank report, not the Governments) I referred to is more specifically about the UK regions of North West, North East and Yorkshire & the Humber.

Edited March 25, 2021 by MessiWillSignForVilla

[chrisp65]

It’s a good point about twitter bubbles.

Fascinating how many people just wallow in their self selected bubble and become convinced the landslide is coming... only to realise later their landslide accounts for 17% of the vote.

Prolly why so many people trump idiots were so easily persuaded they’d been robbed.

[Lichfield Dean]

11 minutes ago, MessiWillSignForVilla said:

I think it's based off of this map, with the yellow constituencies being "the North", which itself is based off the historial boundaries for the Kingdom of Northumbria, hence bits of Lincolnshire and Derbyshire which are more typically in the Midlands.

Although the actual Government report I referred to is more specifically about the UK regions of North West, North East and Yorkshire & the Humber.

Might as well split off Mercia, Wales and Scotland too and go back to the 9th century then

[chrisp65]

Ladies and Gents.... the Dunlop Report

It’s the UK Government report that:

Quote

The Dunlop Review makes recommendations in six different areas: the machinery of government, Civil Service capability, spending, intergovernmental relations, public appointments and communications.

A report in to better communications with the devolved governments, released 2 days ago... that didn’t communicate with the devolved governments.

Genius in its own way. 

Quote

Wales’ Counsel General Jeremy Miles was responding to the publication of the Dunlop Review which recommends the creation of a UK Intergovernmental Council to improve communication between the nations.....

......Jeremy Miles however expressed frustration that the UK Government had only shared the Dunlop report with them at the time of publication despite having it to hand since November 2019.

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by chrisp65

[bannedfromHandV]

16 hours ago, Lichfield Dean said:

Might as well split off Mercia, Wales and Scotland too and go back to the 9th century then

Exactly, we’re supposed to be unifying not fracturing, I don’t think all this independence crap from Scotland, the North etc is helpful at all, I understand where it comes from, most people are sick of being governed by Eton schooled tosspots but drawing more lines on maps isn’t the way.

 

And i say that as a (relatively) proud Welshman.

[ml1dch]

37 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Exactly, we’re supposed to be unifying not fracturing, I don’t think all this independence crap from Scotland, the North etc is helpful at all, I understand where it comes from, most people are sick of being governed by Eton schooled tosspots but drawing more lines on maps isn’t the way.

Who says we're supposed to be unifying? If the common ground that we're all falling in behind is "let's dangle these nobbers off Westminster Bridge by the balls", then I'm quite happy to unify. 

Unfortunately this seems to be quite far from a majority view (not to mention logisitically difficult to organise), so I'm quite happy staying fractured for the moment.

[Davkaus]

I don't see why it's a problem for Scotland or Wales that England keeps voting for Tories.

[Jareth]

I really don't see the issue with the UK reverting to individual nations deciding things for themselves - I mean nobody outside the UK really understands that the UK is a country of countries, my kids don't get it either. I love the Scandi countries doing their own thing, it's no less secure being a smaller country and there's no reason why we can't keep the armed forces as a joint initiative. Union Jack flag shaggers I suspect are stuck in the old empire mindset still - unless there is some obvious benefit to being British I'm not aware of... 

[bickster]

11 minutes ago, Jareth said:

I really don't see the issue with the UK reverting to individual nations deciding things for themselves - I mean nobody outside the UK really understands that the UK is a country of countries, my kids don't get it either. I love the Scandi countries doing their own thing, it's no less secure being a smaller country and there's no reason why we can't keep the armed forces as a joint initiative. Union Jack flag shaggers I suspect are stuck in the old empire mindset still - unless there is some obvious benefit to being British I'm not aware of... 

Union Flags mate, Union Flags

[bickster]

Alex Salmond forms new Alba Party splitting from SNP and they will run in the May Scottish Parliament elections.

Splitters!

[chrisp65]

16 minutes ago, bickster said:

Alex Salmond forms new Alba Party splitting from SNP and they will run in the May Scottish Parliament elections.

Splitters!

The ‘touchy feely’ face of Scottish Independence.

[desensitized43]

13 minutes ago, bickster said:

Alex Salmond forms new Alba Party splitting from SNP and they will run in the May Scottish Parliament elections.

Splitters!

Interesting to see where they're planning to field candidates. When elections become about a single issue for a lot of people and there's only really one party addressing this it does distort the entire system. If they split the independence vote this can really only be good for the tories *shudder*.