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chrisp65

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I know spectacularly little about ‘the north’ but I have suspected all along that there is something very twitter bubble about NIP. Their recruiting of an ex Labour ex MP might just have kicked it up a gear, though I still suspect it will still translate in to ‘novelty candidate’ numbers come the day of an actual election.

But Labour must not presume they are the only legitimate choice of non-tory in any election or by election.

 

 

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ITN / Savanta Poll

Polling of attitudes towards ‘the Union’.

My pick: Q3B - if there was a referendum on Welsh independence tomorrow, how would you vote? 

Yes 35%  (39%)

No 54% (61%)

Don’t Know 11%

 

18% of respondents in England said they would support independence for England.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

 

18% of respondents in England said they would support independence for England.

 

 

In a perverse way, I think I probably would as a favour to our Irish, Welsh and Scots cousins.

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2 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

In a perverse way, I think I probably would as a favour to our Irish, Welsh and Scots cousins.

It would be interesting to see / hear the reaction of England if they had an overall majority that wanted independence but 50 Scottish MP’s said they wouldn’t ‘allow’ it.

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21 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

Very frustrating that they chose to frame a left-wing critique of Starmerism as yet another independence/secession movement IMO.

Been thinking a lot about this, and my disappointment at yet another secession movement has been tempered by the realisation that we wouldn't ever lose at home to Man Utd again.

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10 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

the reaction of England

Like the reaction of Wales, or the reaction of Scotland, it's a complete misnomer. It doesn't exist. Individual people react, sure, and numbers of them in the same and different multiple ways. The whole characterising of stuff like "England things this" or "Wales wants that" - it's bollex.

Even in the most pro independence nation, the Pro and the anti poll results are broadly equal in number. There doesn't seem to be a solid majority anywhere holding a "we want independence" view. The same was true for Brexit. The terminology around England wants this etc. is really misleading and unhelpful in terms of understanding. It also riles up people around "patriotism" and "nationalism" and not in a good way.

If we accept that the way and arrangements for the way different parts of the UK are governed, not governed, funded, not funded and all that and want to change those arrangements, that's fine - "I think Wales should have more/total control over ..." is fine. "The English are stopping [whatever]" is not fine. The "English" are not stopping anything. DIviding and categorising people like that  - it's the way terrorism and hate and violence ultimately lies.

Sorry, you just triggered something. Not a dig at your post.

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5 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Been thinking a lot about this, and my disappointment at yet another secession movement has been tempered by the realisation that we wouldn't ever lose at home to Man Utd again.

I suspect you'd be wrong. Newport County, Cardiff City, Swansea City et al point the way and the direction this would take

EDIT: See also Berwick Rangers FC

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1 minute ago, bickster said:

I suspect you'd be wrong. Newport County, Cardiff City, Swansea City et al point the way and the direction this would take

nah, once you're out we're not letting you lot back in

'Sou-thern Eng-land *clap-clap-clap*

Sou-thern Eng-land *clap-clap-clap*

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3 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

nah, once you're out we're not letting you lot back in

You seem to assuming we want let back in.

1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said:

build a wall, and make the northerners pay for it imo

Ha! getting a northerner to pay for 'owt is beyond the wit of southern softies. Tha withers at the mere mention of gravy or 'owt moist wi' chips.

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2 minutes ago, blandy said:

You seem to assuming we want let back in.

Ha! getting a northerner to pay for 'owt is beyond the wit of southern softies. Tha withers at the mere mention of gravy or 'owt moist wi' chips.

Gonna need all the gravy you can get to keep warm north of the wall mate

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26 minutes ago, blandy said:

Like the reaction of Wales, or the reaction of Scotland, it's a complete misnomer. It doesn't exist. Individual people react, sure, and numbers of them in the same and different multiple ways. The whole characterising of stuff like "England things this" or "Wales wants that" - it's bollex.

Even in the most pro independence nation, the Pro and the anti poll results are broadly equal in number. There doesn't seem to be a solid majority anywhere holding a "we want independence" view. The same was true for Brexit. The terminology around England wants this etc. is really misleading and unhelpful in terms of understanding. It also riles up people around "patriotism" and "nationalism" and not in a good way.

If we accept that the way and arrangements for the way different parts of the UK are governed, not governed, funded, not funded and all that and want to change those arrangements, that's fine - "I think Wales should have more/total control over ..." is fine. "The English are stopping [whatever]" is not fine. The "English" are not stopping anything. DIviding and categorising people like that  - it's the way terrorism and hate and violence ultimately lies.

Sorry, you just triggered something. Not a dig at your post.

Imagine 54% of Scots that expressed a preference in polling being told by 530 MP’s in Westminster representing constituencies in England not necessarily completely full of native English people and probably not even representing the views of the majority of their Surrey or Kent electorate, that they won’t allow it.

Now imagine 54% of people living in England, not to be presumed to be English, that have expressed a preference for independence, being told by 32 MP’s representing potentially a minority of voters in 32 Welsh constituencies that they won’t allow it. I’d imagine that could feel intrinsically unfair to the those people loosely geographically identified as English, causing frustration that ‘democracy’ is actually held in a place that they have no control or say over. A place that has habitually and culturally voted for a different party to them in all but 12 of the last 82 general elections since the Disraeli minority government of 1858.*

We have a first passed the post system, so I would short hand this by saying we have a tory government that was voted in by England. It doesn’t mean all english are tory. It’s that same Venn diagram that doesn’t (often / usually) need saying, the all racists voted brexit not all brexit voters are racist. First passed the post winner takes it all elections do tend to lead to clunking descriptions. Whether it leads to the spread of terrorism? if anyone on VT has been lead down a dark path to terrorism due to my crass generalisations, I’ll gladly apologise.**

Not all english are insisting we fly the Union Jack over Cardiff every day and higher up the pole than the Welsh flag to show who has dominion over what. I do know that, I think we all know that, to a point we can usually short hand it. But the arsehole that has decided that flag stuff is a vote winner, was put in his position of power, overwhelmingly but not exhaustively, by english (possibly not all english, some Scots will have moved to Hampshire and voted tory) tory voters.

None of that quite rolls off the tongue like my earlier version, but possibly covers some of the caveats.

And I completely accept that talking in binary yes/no, black/white terms doesn’t give every nuance. I say ‘Wales’, there are 4 of us in this house and 3 different opinions on the subject. But generally, in bollitics threads within VT, I think most contributors know what is meant when someone refers to ‘Scotland wants’ or ‘England voted for’. 

 

* I’ve rushed this stat with a crash course through Wikipedia so it could be subject to change, I make it 163 years since Wales last voted tory the same as England but Richard Wyn Jones appears to suggest its over 170 years and he’s a professor of politics, so, hey!

** things can be funnier in my head than when read by others.

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2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

We have a first passed the post system, so I would short hand this by saying we have a tory government that was voted in by England. It doesn’t mean all english are tory. It’s that same Venn diagram that doesn’t (often / usually) need saying, the all racists voted brexit not all brexit voters are racist. First passed the post winner takes it all elections do tend to lead to clunking descriptions. Whether it leads to the spread of terrorism? if anyone on VT has been lead down a dark path to terrorism due to my crass generalisations, I’ll gladly apologise.**

I was thinking of Norn Iron actually, not some Welsh nutter on VT. :)

A few knobbers deciding "the other lot" need a good dose of kneecapping and bombing and wotnot for wanting to be part of the UK/Part of the South.

Whether it's whoppers burning cottages, or kneecapping kids, or hurling abuse at women on the Clapham omnibus the nationalism thing has a real nasty side to it.

The system is absolutely broken, it's broken for the Welsh, Scots, English, (North, South and Midlands)  Irish residents. Blame the twunts running it, refusing to change it. Don't "other" people living in a different geographical location to you (anyone).  "The English want such and such" - it's almost always wrong they (collectively) don't. 

 

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