Ollie Watkins

[nick76]

13 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

apparently not will cost 25m. i personally still think he's worth a go. he has the right attributes

neither hogan nor mccormack played for us in the prem. and kodj barely played due to a fall out with smith. what would you suggest? splash 40m on a big name that's also unproven in the prem? we're not getting anyone from a prem rival that's worth having

How do you know? 

[tomav84]

3 minutes ago, nick76 said:

How do you know? 

i don't...but i'd bet serious money that we wouldn't. no prem team is selling one of their top strikers that will weaken them and benefit a rival. not unless it's ridiculous money. i dread to think what tammy would cost but it would take a huge chunk of whatever our transfer budget is. i'd guestimate 40m for them to even consider it. ings would be at least 20m which is a lot for a 28 year old and could be argued that has just had his only really decent season in this league

origi sounds a big name on paper but 41 goals in 206 league appearances is a shite return so i wouldn't be keen, especially for the money we'd need to spend

[villalad21]

50 mill for Benrahma and Watkins would be an absolute steal 

[lexicon]

22 minutes ago, nick76 said:

How do you know? 

It's pretty obvious, Nick. Most teams are wealthy enough to keep hold of their best players unless silly money comes in - so we'd have to pay way over the odds to get them interested in selling. There's very little value in that market right now. 

[Stevo985]

12 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

i don't...but i'd bet serious money that we wouldn't. no prem team is selling one of their top strikers that will weaken them and benefit a rival. not unless it's ridiculous money. i dread to think what tammy would cost but it would take a huge chunk of whatever our transfer budget is. i'd guestimate 40m for them to even consider it. ings would be at least 20m which is a lot for a 28 year old and could be argued that has just had his only really decent season in this league

origi sounds a big name on paper but 41 goals in 206 league appearances is a shite return so i wouldn't be keen, especially for the money we'd need to spend

Not that I'm backing an Origi transfer, but a lot of his appearances are sub appearances so I think that misrepresents him slightly.

He's got 25 league goals in about 5000 minutes since joining Liverpool (including his Wolfsburg spell) which isn't far off one in two

[nick76]

8 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

i don't...but i'd bet serious money that we wouldn't. no prem team is selling one of their top strikers that will weaken them and benefit a rival. not unless it's ridiculous money. i dread to think what tammy would cost but it would take a huge chunk of whatever our transfer budget is. i'd guestimate 40m for them to even consider it. ings would be at least 20m which is a lot for a 28 year old and could be argued that has just had his only really decent season in this league

origi sounds a big name on paper but 41 goals in 206 league appearances is a shite return so i wouldn't be keen, especially for the money we'd need to spend

So why not spend 40m on Tammy, who has proved it somewhat in the Premiership and still young rather than 25m on Watkins who only scored significantly last season albeit he’s played a lot wide and has not been tested in the Premiership?

We have spent so much on project players, we need some less risk at the cost of paying more of a premium.  I’d rather 3 or 4 quality additions, than 5 or 6 potential quality additions.  Last season was quantity over quality, this season has to be quality over quantity.....that includes high risk last season, lower risk acquisition this season.

I have no issue with Watkins but it’s a hell of a risk spending so much on another project player when we already have Wes and Davis being projects in that role.  I know a lot of people like Watkins but it’s a hell of risk for the money.

[lexicon]

Just now, nick76 said:

So why not spend 40m on Tammy, who has proved it somewhat in the Premiership and still young rather than 25m on Watkins who only scored significantly last season albeit he’s played a lot wide and has not been tested in the Premiership?

We have spent so much on project players, we need some less risk at the cost of paying more of a premium.  I’d rather 3 or 4 quality additions, than 5 or 6 potential quality additions.  Last season was quantity over quality, this season has to be quality over quantity.....that includes high risk last season, lower risk acquisition this season.

I have no issue with Watkins but it’s a hell of a risk spending so much on another project player when we already have Wes and Davis being projects in that role.  I know a lot of people like Watkins but it’s a hell of risk for the money.

Because it's not merely a numbers game. They're not the same type of player, really. 

Abraham wants to be an out-and-out striker, whereas Watkins is a more modern forward who plays across the front three, and who is a bit better with his feet/passing, so can share it around more. Personally, I think we need to be looking more at players who can do the latter, as we'll need to share the goals around rather than rely on one guy to bang them in every time. That way, we're not so dependant on him and won't suffer as much if he gets injured or is sold. 

I'd be looking at versatile forwards who can create chances as well as create them, as opposed to strikers who have a very specific role in the team. 

[nick76]

5 minutes ago, lexicon said:

It's pretty obvious, Nick. Most teams are wealthy enough to keep hold of their best players unless silly money comes in - so we'd have to pay way over the odds to get them interested in selling. There's very little value in that market right now. 

Yes but we don’t need a player from most teams, we just need one.  Obviously I suggest Tammy but I assume there are others.  This role for the next five years is so key that spending money on a project player like Watkins because he’s never player at this level and previously was playing as a wide man.  We already have Wes and Davis as projects for that role, no point wasting money on another.  

We need to spend big on the right player, if that costs a premium then we either want to advance or we won’t.  If we don’t, that’s disappointing but fine but let’s not waste money this summer when we talked about quality over quantity to advance this close season whereas last season was quantity.

[romavillan]

Tammy woudl be great but he clearly is Chelsea to the core, which means it's slightly more complicated than it would be otherwise. We might be getting Watkins to play wide and be lining up another CF. Who knows, going to be fun though!

[lexicon]

Just now, nick76 said:

Yes but we don’t need a player from most teams, we just need one.  Obviously I suggest Tammy but I assume there are others.  This role for the next five years is so key that spending money on a project player like Watkins because he’s never player at this level and previously was playing as a wide man.  We already have Wes and Davis as projects for that role, no point wasting money on another.  

We need to spend big on the right player, if that costs a premium then we either want to advance or we won’t.  If we don’t, that’s disappointing but fine but let’s not waste money this summer when we talked about quality over quantity to advance this close season whereas last season was quantity.

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree that we need to spend big on one guy because it puts all our eggs in one basket. I certainly wouldn't want to spend a huge amount on Abraham, for the reasons I mentioned in the other post. 

If we're looking at players who have done it in the Prem, I'd want Buendia and Iheanacho. The issue is that the former is going to be in serious demand, whereas the latter will probably mess up our wage structure. Abraham would also command serious wages, and if we bring in one guy like that, there'll be a massive queue of players in the squad who'll want parity or big bucks too - which causes another problem. 

It's a very tricky game right now, and we need to be clever with our recruitment. Being particularly bold and betting it all on red is not the play IMO - too risky. 

 

[tomav84]

5 minutes ago, nick76 said:

So why not spend 40m on Tammy, who has proved it somewhat in the Premiership and still young rather than 25m on Watkins who only scored significantly last season albeit he’s played a lot wide and has not been tested in the Premiership?

We have spent so much on project players, we need some less risk at the cost of paying more of a premium.  I’d rather 3 or 4 quality additions, than 5 or 6 potential quality additions.  Last season was quantity over quality, this season has to be quality over quantity.....that includes high risk last season, lower risk acquisition this season.

I have no issue with Watkins but it’s a hell of a risk spending so much on another project player when we already have Wes and Davis being projects in that role.  I know a lot of people like Watkins but it’s a hell of risk for the money.

i doubt we would get tammy for 40m. i said that's how much for them to even consider it. i would expect he would end up costing over 40m, plus add ons, and probably a buy back clause too.

i think you're kidding yourself if you think we're going to end up with a totally proven premier league striker. and even they're not guaranteed to succeed if they move to another club (i.e. beneteke)

i also think it's unfair to label any player who's not played in the prem before as a 'project' player. every transfer carries risk. you do your homework, scout him, watch previous games, and establish whether he has the attributes for premier league football

[nick76]

5 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Because it's not merely a numbers game. They're not the same type of player, really. 

Abraham wants to be an out-and-out striker, whereas Watkins is a more modern forward who plays across the front three, and who is a bit better with his feet/passing, so can share it around more. Personally, I think we need to be looking more at players who can do the latter, as we'll need to share the goals around rather than rely on one guy to bang them in every time. That way, we're not so dependant on him and won't suffer as much if he gets injured or is sold. 

I'd be looking at versatile forwards who can create chances as well as create them, as opposed to strikers who have a very specific role in the team. 

I agree, Watkins is more like Wes than Abraham so why would we want to buy somebody similar when we already have a player like that and also a project. 

If Watkins is brought to play out wide forward then fine but not as central striker, we dont need another number 10 type player.  We need a player that is more an out and out striker  and I think you are doing Abraham a real disservice about his feet and passing, he used to link really well with Grealish. 

We need a striker that can nick goals against the run of play, that defenders are always looking over their shoulder, worried about and somebody who always looking to score goals because so many times we just have that player in the box.

As for versatile forwards who can score....now you are talking about really expensive and unlikely wanting to come to us because they want Champions League football or spending money on another project.  You need a balance and taking another risk is silly in my eyes.  Plus buying somebody like Tammy and buying the two wingers that people talk about plus Grealish....those three are all the creativity you want. 

I certainly know who Premiership defenders would be more scared of out of Tammy or Watkins and it's not even close.

We all love finding a gem, we all love a lower league player come good in the big time......great, yeah love that but where we are now after buying so many project players last season is some ready made players like Tammy, not hopeful that they step up like Watkins.  That means more money and not having another player then so be it. 

You know what you are getting with Tammy, you are just hopeful of what you'll get with Watkins.

[NurembergVillan]

8 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

i also think it's unfair to label any player who's not played in the prem before as a 'project' player. every transfer carries risk.

Absolutely. Compare and contrast Angel di Maria and Memphis Depay with Heung Min Son and Richarlison.

[nick76]

8 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I see where you're coming from, but I disagree that we need to spend big on one guy because it puts all our eggs in one basket. I certainly wouldn't want to spend a huge amount on Abraham, for the reasons I mentioned in the other post. 

If we're looking at players who have done it in the Prem, I'd want Buendia and Iheanacho. The issue is that the former is going to be in serious demand, whereas the latter will probably mess up our wage structure. Abraham would also command serious wages, and if we bring in one guy like that, there'll be a massive queue of players in the squad who'll want parity or big bucks too - which causes another problem. 

It's a very tricky game right now, and we need to be clever with our recruitment. Being particularly bold and betting it all on red is not the play IMO - too risky. 

 

Re Iheanacho, my Leicester mates (as I've said before) said he's not worth it and not what we need. Even they are looking to move him to their third striker with an acquisition of a second striker behind Vardy.   I know his stats like you do but they said that's better than what's underneath.

plus at what point do we step up in wages.  The owners talk about ambition.  We are in the bottom five of wages and for to improve we need better players and with that comes higher wages, at some point we will have to make the jump.  We dont want to get ourselves into trouble but at the same time if we keep shopping in the bargain basement we are going to be around the relegation zone.  Our wage bill is significantly lower than mid table teams.  It's no surprise that there isnt a major difference between wage bill and league places with a few exceptions like Sheff Utd.  Will they have a second season that high, maybe not, who knows but wage bills generally arent that different to league placing.

[lexicon]

2 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I agree, Watkins is more like Wes than Abraham so why would we want to buy somebody similar when we already have a player like that and also a project. 

If Watkins is brought to play out wide forward then fine but not as central striker, we dont need another number 10 type player.  We need a player that is more an out and out striker  and I think you are doing Abraham a real disservice about his feet and passing, he used to link really well with Grealish. 

We need a striker that can nick goals against the run of play, that defenders are always looking over their shoulder, worried about and somebody who always looking to score goals because so many times we just have that player in the box.

As for versatile forwards who can score....now you are talking about really expensive and unlikely wanting to come to us because they want Champions League football or spending money on another project.  You need a balance and taking another risk is silly in my eyes.  Plus buying somebody like Tammy and buying the two wingers that people talk about plus Grealish....those three are all the creativity you want. 

I certainly know who Premiership defenders would be more scared of out of Tammy or Watkins and it's not even close.

We all love finding a gem, we all love a lower league player come good in the big time......great, yeah love that but where we are now after buying so many project players last season is some ready made players like Tammy, not hopeful that they step up like Watkins.  That means more money and not having another player then so be it. 

You know what you are getting with Tammy, you are just hopeful of what you'll get with Watkins.

Again, I get where you're coming from, I just don't really agree with it - and that's fine by the way, I don't think either of us are necessarily 'right' here, it's just differing opinions and that's the whole point of the board. I

Anyway, I think Liverpool are a great example here of what I'd like to emulate - they don't have a player like Abraham and don't need one, because of the way their system works. I just think it's better to have the versatility than to have a player who is going to not be that useful if he's not scoring. I love seeing a fluid forward line of players who can tee each other up and aren't too selfish. Plus if you look at other out-and-out strikers like Pukki, for example, from January onward, contributed next to nothing because he fell out form and wasn't there to contribute to other passages of play. 

[lexicon]

3 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Re Iheanacho, my Leicester mates (as I've said before) said he's not worth it and not what we need. Even they are looking to move him to their third striker with an acquisition of a second striker behind Vardy.   I know his stats like you do but they said that's better than what's underneath.

plus at what point do we step up in wages.  The owners talk about ambition.  We are in the bottom five of wages and for to improve we need better players and with that comes higher wages, at some point we will have to make the jump.  We dont want to get ourselves into trouble but at the same time if we keep shopping in the bargain basement we are going to be around the relegation zone.  Our wage bill is significantly lower than mid table teams.  It's no surprise that there isnt a major difference between wage bill and league places with a few exceptions like Sheff Utd.  Will they have a second season that high, maybe not, who knows but wage bills generally arent that different to league placing.

I've always liked the look of Iheanacho, but I haven't watched him closely enough and regularly enough, so I'll defer to your mates there.

With wages, it's again very tricky. I think our best play is to go as gradually and as organically as possible, so as to not upset the apple cart and cause any issues within the squad. I just don't want us to be in the position where we were before, paying large sums to trash like Lescott, Richards, Gabby, Ireland, Given, N'Zogbia etc. and still being shit. 

[tomav84]

14 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I agree, Watkins is more like Wes than Abraham so why would we want to buy somebody similar when we already have a player like that and also a project.

why do you see wesley as a project? we paid 22m for him as our first choice striker...maybe our definitions of project differ, but i see that term used for a younger player who we aim to develop over time rather than a first choice

that's what i also see watkins as. someone to slot straight in, rather than to develop and only play a bit part in the season.

curious to know your definition because you use the term a lot

[nick76]

14 minutes ago, tomav84 said:

i also think it's unfair to label any player who's not played in the prem before as a 'project' player. every transfer carries risk. you do your homework, scout him, watch previous games, and establish whether he has the attributes for premier league football

I havent label every player a project player who hasnt played in the but Watkins for me is a project player. 3 years at Brentford in the Championship playing mainly as a wide forward before playing centrally this season.  Therefore he is still reasonably young, still learning his new position, still only played at a lower level (your point).  So moving to us would be still learning the centre forward position and it being in a higher league, if that isnt a project i dont know what is. 

At the moment he's only played one season front line really so he maybe a one season wonder, although i highly doubt it.  I would really love to buy him but not at the expense of buying a top notch striker.

I guess a few disagree with me on here and a few agree with me.  If he comes then I will be delighted because he looks like he'll be a talent and I will really support him.  If it's at the expense of a top notch striker then I will be really disappointed and re-assess where I thought the Villa was heading ie Mid table rather than another likely relegation struggle.

[nick76]

9 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Again, I get where you're coming from, I just don't really agree with it - and that's fine by the way, I don't think either of us are necessarily 'right' here, it's just differing opinions and that's the whole point of the board. I

Anyway, I think Liverpool are a great example here of what I'd like to emulate - they don't have a player like Abraham and don't need one, because of the way their system works. I just think it's better to have the versatility than to have a player who is going to not be that useful if he's not scoring. I love seeing a fluid forward line of players who can tee each other up and aren't too selfish. Plus if you look at other out-and-out strikers like Pukki, for example, from January onward, contributed next to nothing because he fell out form and wasn't there to contribute to other passages of play. 

but didnt you remember the interchange and passing between Grealish and Abraham in the Championship, that worked like free flowing football.  Liverpool is the dream obviously but we need to make our own with the tools we have.  They have world class players.  What I dont want is free flowing football but none of them can put the ball in the back of the net.  

You say Pukki, I say Ings

[tomav84]

2 minutes ago, nick76 said:

I havent label every player a project player who hasnt played in the but Watkins for me is a project player. 3 years at Brentford in the Championship playing mainly as a wide forward before playing centrally this season.  Therefore he is still reasonably young, still learning his new position, still only played at a lower level (your point).  So moving to us would be still learning the centre forward position and it being in a higher league, if that isnt a project i dont know what is. 

At the moment he's only played one season front line really so he maybe a one season wonder, although i highly doubt it.  I would really love to buy him but not at the expense of buying a top notch striker.

I guess a few disagree with me on here and a few agree with me.  If he comes then I will be delighted because he looks like he'll be a talent and I will really support him.  If it's at the expense of a top notch striker then I will be really disappointed and re-assess where I thought the Villa was heading ie Mid table rather than another likely relegation struggle.

this, i do agree with you on. and FWIW i don't think he's our only striker target. i would be amazed if we start the season with him, sama, and wes as our striker options (assuming davis is sent on loan). i expect watkins has arrived on our radar following brentford's failed promotion and we had other targets in mind prior to tuesday