Racism Part two

[lexicon]

1 minute ago, gwi1890 said:

As a Mixed Race man born here in the UK these “woke” people genuinely make our situation harder . I’ve experienced more racism in the past 3 years than I ever did growing up in the 90’s and 00’s. I  agree when people “black up” or whatever it’s called it can come across cringey and I’ve felt slightly uncomfortable int the past at fancy dress parties and so on but it didn’t bother me to the extent that I needed to confront someone about it and to be fair I’ve never experienced a person doing it from a standpoint of malice.

It's not okay that you felt uncomfortable by somebody's choice of fancy dress. Blackface is not OK because of its historical implications - it's not about being woke, it's about being a respectful human being. 

RE: Monchi, it's a different culture and this is something that they need to work on. I'm for learning rather than punishment or unilateral condemnation but what happened with Vinicius Jr. the other day is not completely unrelated to this. 

[The_Steve]

Spain is a big country, and these traditions are wrong, always have been. It wasn’t until 2015 that Madrid stopped using blackface and use Black peoples to play Balthazar during the Three Magi processions. Other parts are much worse in their usage of it (including dozens dressed in blackface). Yes, it might be centuries old, but societies move forward, and sadly, large parts of Spain have not. From Black Pete in the Netherlands to similar traditions in the Czech Republic, it's a big problem. Intentionality or tradition matter little when such acts dehumanise Black people. They could find actual Black people to fill these rolls and white Spaniards can and should stop blackface. There's lots of pushback in Spain from many communities. Not everyone in Spain accepts such racist traditions. Progress is slow. Spain in many ways is still a very culturally conservative place. Monchi should absolutely apologise. Some of the worst aspects of Spanish culture shouldn't be celebrated. I understand that it had great religious significance for Monchi and that he's been vocal against racism in other ways. These layers shouldn't be forgotten. These cultural sensitives however will be needed in the job moving forward. Part of change is helping to educate.

[Follyfoot]

10 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

It isn’t the same but if people genuinely felt offended by it racially then they should highlight it. But if they are just bringing up to say ‘why can they do this but we can’t do this’ then it’s pretty lame. 
 

In Monchi we trust.

I’m generally offended to how shite the film was

[bobzy]

11 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Genuine question. Why are these okay, but Monchi’s isn’t?

 

(White) People always reference the White Chicks film when blackfacing is in conversation.  Always.  It's literally the one reference point.

The difference is that White Chicks is a comedy film with no denigration of white people involved.  The Wayans brothers are playing a ridiculous role; there's nothing about them exaggerating "white" features - they're just undercover police looking silly.  Blackface (traditionally) exaggerated "black" features (lips were highlighted so as to be big, eyes made prominent) and also had those characters being stupid.  The stupid black person was what it was all about.  In wider pieces, that then extended to acting roles not being given to black people, but being given to white people who then "blacked up".  I'm not aware that "whiteface" or hiring black actors to play white characters has ever been a thing - could be wrong.

Of course, there's some nuance in that you wouldn't see the roles reversed in a film - but that's because the World is (should be) aware of blackface and the entirely racist characterisation involved.  It's just never been there the other way around.

 

It does make you wonder why some traditional festivals or whatever still persist in places like Spain (presumably where this particular controversy comes from) and the Netherlands (where they have "black Pete" each year) - there's no inherent racism now... but why is it still maintained?  It's a different conversation though.

[StanBalaban]

15 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

I genuinely had no idea that the bloke in short-circuit was not Indian. You learn something new every day?

Yeah. Dated Michelle Pfeiffer in her prime too.

Also has the world's thinnest neck.

[Jareth]

I think we should all spare a thought for Sean Connerys James Bond yellow facing moment 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

7 minutes ago, gwi1890 said:

As a Mixed Race man born here in the UK these “woke” people genuinely make our situation harder . I’ve experienced more racism in the past 3 years than I ever did growing up in the 90’s and 00’s. I  agree when people “black up” or whatever it’s called it can come across cringey and I’ve felt slightly uncomfortable int the past at fancy dress parties and so on but it didn’t bother me to the extent that I needed to confront someone about it and to be fair I’ve never experienced a person doing it from a standpoint of malice.

I remember kids dressing up, or painting faces to be their favourite football players or celebrity etc.

Yeah hindsight matters but I value intent and context more.

As you said, it baffles me that we live in the least racist era of all time but the media have almost made us all a bit more " racist ".

I've got a multicultural family of all shades, and grew up around people of all colours and cultures.

Yes racism certainly exists, but it's the exception, not the rule.

The average person doesn't wake up thinking about racism, or being racist.

Kids don't grow up with other kids even thinking about race.

People are generally just trying to live.

Some people, whilst there hearts are in the right place, tend to overblow these things to the point where it becomes a bit cringe.

Definitely some shite traditions still about though. Only education will help, there are ways to approach people about these sort of things without going all out attack all the time as the first stop.

[Follyfoot]

3 minutes ago, bobzy said:

 

(White) People always reference the White Chicks film when blackfacing is in conversation.  Always.  It's literally the one reference point.

The difference is that White Chicks is a comedy film with no denigration of white people involved.  The Wayans brothers are playing a ridiculous role; there's nothing about them exaggerating "white" features - they're just undercover police looking silly.  Blackface (traditionally) exaggerated "black" features (lips were highlighted so as to be big, eyes made prominent) and also had those characters being stupid.  The stupid black person was what it was all about.  In wider pieces, that then extended to acting roles not being given to black people, but being given to white people who then "blacked up".  I'm not aware that "whiteface" or hiring black actors to play white characters has ever been a thing - could be wrong.

Of course, there's some nuance in that you wouldn't see the roles reversed in a film - but that's because the World is (should be) aware of blackface and the entirely racist characterisation involved.  It's just never been there the other way around.

 

It does make you wonder why some traditional festivals or whatever still persist in places like Spain (presumably where this particular controversy comes from) and the Netherlands (where they have "black Pete" each year) - there's no inherent racism now... but why is it still maintained?  It's a different conversation though.

Is it?

[CVByrne]

14 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Wasn’t it a film about a white guy that did black face to get more roles ? They could hardly use a black guy for that role! 

It's a satirical comedy movie. 

[Monkeypuzzle]

16 minutes ago, gwi1890 said:

As a Mixed Race man born here in the UK these “woke” people genuinely make our situation harder . I’ve experienced more racism in the past 3 years than I ever did growing up in the 90’s and 00’s. I  agree when people “black up” or whatever it’s called it can come across cringey and I’ve felt slightly uncomfortable int the past at fancy dress parties and so on but it didn’t bother me to the extent that I needed to confront someone about it and to be fair I’ve never experienced a person doing it from a standpoint of malice.

I think that's a very helpful and important point of view to share. I've never experienced someone "blacking up" or "whiting up" either but I imagine either would make me feel awkward. What you say about no intention of malice is important I think. It's the difference between getting angry about the situation and just talking about it. Personally I don't see a difference between Tropic Thunder and White Chicks. Both are getting actors portraying people of different race and making humour about the ridiculous nature of it. However, I also understand the historical issues of black face that somewhat upset that balance. John Wayne playing Ghengis Khan is the situation we do not want to return to. 

[Adman]

29 minutes ago, lexicon said:

No, it doesn't. White Chicks is not the same as blackface ffs. 

There's a big difference with dressing up like Nelson Mandela because you think he  was the greatest human being of all time and dressing up like a golliwog to ridicule a whole race of people.  One is racist, the other is not.   

It would make for a tedious evening explaining your intentions the whole time so best avoided either way

[lexicon]

5 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Only education will help, there are ways to approach people about these sort of things without going all out attack all the time as the first stop.

This is the main point for me, but I do get pissed off when people try to argue or justify ignorance, though. 

[AvfcRigo82]

27 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

One of my ex-colleagues messaged me the other day because she'd just got a new job: "Licencing Asset and Configuration Analyst". 

Nope, not a clue. 

Administrator perhaps? but with a more fancy and jazzy name to it so it sounds more technical and important.   

[lexicon]

Just now, Adman said:

1) There's a big difference with dressing up like Nelson Mandela because you think he  was the greatest human being of all time and dressing up like a golliwog to ridicule a whole race of people.  One is racist, the other is not.   

2) It would make for a tedious evening explaining your intentions the whole time so best avoided either way

2 is basically the crux of the matter. 

I don't think dressing up like Nelson Mandela is the best way to honour him tbf 

[Monkeypuzzle]

17 minutes ago, Delphinho123 said:

I blame Buendia. 

This genuinely made me laugh out loud. Well done sir!

[gwi1890]

12 hours ago, lexicon said:

It's not okay that you felt uncomfortable by somebody's choice of fancy dress. Blackface is not OK because of its historical implications - it's not about being woke, it's about being a respectful human being. 

RE: Monchi, it's a different culture and this is something that they need to work on. I'm for learning rather than punishment or unilateral condemnation but what happened with Vinicius Jr. the other day is not completely unrelated to this. 

I agree it’s not ok and people need to learn the best way is start with history and the hand of many European country’s in colonialism which is unfortunately swept under the rug and not taught to the world. My Father lived under a apartheid government during the 60’s to the 80’s where is family home was raided daily by the authorities and his father thrown in jail for living with his family, and yet through all this experience he married a white woman, I’ve told the longer version of this story to people and they genuinely can’t believe events like this happened to late as the 90’s and are under the impression that everything bad in the world came to an end with Hitler in 1945. There is no room for racism we are all equal but unless people are made aware of history from a young age there is no way to relate of sympathise  and truly understand. But witch hunting is not the way to go about it  we need to bring people together unfortunately in recent years we’ve been repeating history again and segregating people.

Edited June 17, 2023 by gwi1890

[Follyfoot]

2 minutes ago, lexicon said:

2 is basically the crux of the matter. 

I don't think dressing up like Nelson Mandela is the best way to honour him tbf 

For some reason, an image of a Nelson Mandela tribute celebration gathering in Las Vegas, like Elvi do appeared in my mind 

[Robbie09]

1 hour ago, alreadyexists said:

The Spanish also do bull fighting and stabbing the bulls with spears and stuff… I also think that’s detestable

Slightly off topic but whole heartedly agree. Abhorrent tradition.

[Adman]

11 minutes ago, lexicon said:

This is the main point for me, but I do get pissed off when people try to argue or justify ignorance, though. 

I'd only use up energy on the people who are trying to piss you off.  Most people are just going about their lives, sometimes clumsily, sometimes making mistakes but not meaning any harm

[Monkeypuzzle]

So we have someone new at the club? Is there anything controversial about him people would like to discuss?