Phil Silvers Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, bickster said: If we're tearing down statues for historical crimes this one has to be the top of the list surely? That really is taking the future piss 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, bickster said: If we're tearing down statues for historical crimes this one has to be the top of the list surely? I never knew the famous Arsenal Back 4 had a statue? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 10, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, blandy said: What have you got against the Dave Clark 5? 1 minute ago, Xela said: I never knew the famous Arsenal Back 4 had a statue? I thought they were former Blue Peter presenters as third from the left is definitely John Noakes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post sne Posted June 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2020 (edited) Might be a somewhat separate issue but I'm not 100% comfortable with this current trend of almost rewriting history to make it fit in with current ideals. It's bordering on 1984 and "newspeak". While we obviously should not have statues of Hitler (or Michael Jackson) standing around, tearing down Christopher Columbus statues (just an example) might be a bit far. I'm all for changing the language in old childrens books like Tintin or Pippi Longstocking to remove racist language or situations and publish the new ones, but don't burn or eradicate the originals. We can and should learn from history. It should be the parents and teachers obligation to explain history and what was wrong and how. Don't pretend like it never happened. It is still possible for historic people to have been extremely important and still by current standards to have been racist, sexist, homophobic (remove all religious symbols and effigies?) By modern standards pretty much anyone who lived in the 60's would be seem racist and sexist now, and if we go further back it is another world almost. In a lot of ways we are better off now but don't remove history and what led us here. Edited June 10, 2020 by sne 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, sne said: Might be a somewhat separate issue but I'm not 100% comfortable with this current trend of almost rewriting history to make it fit in with current ideals. It's bordering on 1984 and "newspeak". While we obviously should not have statues of Hitler (or Michael Jackson) standing around, tearing down Christopher Columbus statues (just an example) might be a bit far. I'm all for changing the language in old childrens books like Tintin or Pippi Longstocking to remove racist language or situations and publish the new ones, but don't burn or eradicate the originals. We can and should learn from history. It should be the parents and teachers obligation to explain history and what was wrong and how. Don't pretend like it never happened. It is still possible for historic people to have been extremely important and still by current standards to have been racist, sexist, homophobic (remove all religious symbols and effigies?) By modern standards pretty much anyone who in 60's would be seen racist and sexist now, and if we go further back it is another world almost. In a lot of ways we are better off now but don't remove history and what led us here. If they tear down Churchill's, Nelson's or Cromwells statue I give up caring about this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Not sure I subscribe to this slippery slope argument. You can learn from history in books and at museums where the statues would actually make more sense. I'm not sure how you reconcile giant tributes to slavers and racist mass murderers and also preach about inclusivity being among your modern values as a society? We go to war in the middle east to bring about "democracy" and finger wag about supposed genocides but we have statues of Christopher Columbus displayed proudly in our cities. How does that work exactly? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Keyblade said: Not sure I subscribe to this slippery slope argument. You can learn from history in books and at museums where the statues would actually make more sense. I'm not sure how you reconcile giant tributes to slavers and racist mass murderers and also preach about inclusivity being among your modern values as a society? We go to war in the middle east to bring about "democracy" and finger wag about supposed genocides but we have statues of Christopher Columbus displayed proudly in our cities. How does that work exactly? Could start with not going to war in the middle east 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 11 minutes ago, sne said: Might be a somewhat separate issue but I'm not 100% comfortable with this current trend of almost rewriting history to make it fit in with current ideals. It's bordering on 1984 and "newspeak". “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.” 1984 is a great book, been a while since I read it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 55 minutes ago, Xela said: I guess you could apply the same logic to Gandhi as well. He said horrible things about black people. I expect that his choice of sleeping arrangements might be seen as a bit problematic today as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Just now, ml1dch said: I expect that his choice of sleeping arrangements might be seen as a bit problematic today as well. "I was just testing my willpower officer, honest!" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 1 minute ago, sne said: Could start with not going to war in the middle east Yeah but what about the oi...I mean weapons of mass destruction? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 21 minutes ago, sne said: Might be a somewhat separate issue but I'm not 100% comfortable with this current trend of almost rewriting history to make it fit in with current ideals. It's bordering on 1984 and "newspeak". While we obviously should not have statues of Hitler (or Michael Jackson) standing around, tearing down Christopher Columbus statues (just an example) might be a bit far. I'm all for changing the language in old childrens books like Tintin or Pippi Longstocking to remove racist language or situations and publish the new ones, but don't burn or eradicate the originals. We can and should learn from history. It should be the parents and teachers obligation to explain history and what was wrong and how. Don't pretend like it never happened. It is still possible for historic people to have been extremely important and still by current standards to have been racist, sexist, homophobic (remove all religious symbols and effigies?) By modern standards pretty much anyone who lived in the 60's would be seem racist and sexist now, and if we go further back it is another world almost. In a lot of ways we are better off now but don't remove history and what led us here. Who is saying 'remove history' or rewrite history? Pretty much all 'history' is a modern take about what happened in the past. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bickster Posted June 10, 2020 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted June 10, 2020 20 minutes ago, sne said: Might be a somewhat separate issue but I'm not 100% comfortable with this current trend of almost rewriting history to make it fit in with current ideals. Whilst I do agree with the sentiment in your post, we have to actually think what a statue is? A statue tends to be a celebration of a person. Thats different to changing history, its about not wishing to celebrate what that person did or stood for any more and it currently doesn't fit with what society thinks is decent anymore A statue of a slaver, can't possibly be something to celebrate anymore. If the setting was changed to a museum, that would be a different matter, there'd be an educational aspect to that, but a statue in a public space is a celebration of that person and their achievements 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 10, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 10, 2020 22 minutes ago, PaulC said: Cromwells statue The Irish might disagree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 11 minutes ago, Xela said: “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right.” 1984 is a great book, been a while since I read it. I'm sorry but this (in the context that you are posting it, i.e. as a reply to sne's post) is a really, really dreadful reading of 1984 and Orwell. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted June 10, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 10, 2020 Cromwell statues can go. I'm not sure you can paper over religiously motivated genocide. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Just now, bickster said: Whilst I do agree with the sentiment in your post, we have to actually think what a statue is? A statue tends to be a celebration of a person. Thats different to changing history, its about not wishing to celebrate what that person did or stood for any more and it currently doesn't fit with what society thinks is decent anymore A statue of a slaver, can't possibly be something to celebrate anymore. If the setting was changed to a museum, that would be a different matter, there'd be an educational aspect to that, but a statue in a public space is a celebration of that person and their achievements Agreed and maybe Columbus did enough bad to outweigh the other stuff he is famous for and for what he is depicted in statues. My post wasn't really about him. Thing is you can pick anyone and everyone from history and no one would fit in with our current ideals. And the statues usually has a little plaque to explain who they were I have no particular statue or person I'm fond of so that's not the issue for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 10, 2020 Moderator Share Posted June 10, 2020 27 minutes ago, PaulC said: If they tear down Churchill's, Nelson's or Cromwells statue I give up caring about this country. Is that the trigger for someone to tell you that if you don't like it here, to go and live abroad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted June 10, 2020 Share Posted June 10, 2020 Yeah, I don't think anybody is advocating scrubbing people from the history books or all trace of their existence. They just don't want them to be you know, celebrated? I'm all for not destroying the statues and moving them all into museums to be both a representation of that person and also with a note mentioning "this statue stood in the public square until the year 202x when it was taken down due to strong opposition from the locals". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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