OutByEaster? Posted October 27, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 27, 2023 in fairness, the WHO have produced a list of a really big chunk of those people, by name, that they believe have been killed. EDIT: Ah, okay - the Hamas health ministry have produced the list - the WHO have backed it up as a reasonable document. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 27, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 27, 2023 The UN has passed a resolution calling for an immediate humanitarian pause, there are groups all over the world pushing to try to prevent this - it'll make no difference whatsoever. The head of the UN describes right now as a moment of truth and that history will judge us all. Israel is adamant and the US is "refusing to draw red lines", Rishi Sunak will be having a coffee somewhere and no doubt telling someone that "Israel has a right to protect itself". By morning it will be a burning hell and thousands more men, women and children will be dead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 1 hour ago, ender4 said: So what will be the plan when the Israeli army cross over into Gaza? I have my theories. Im going to get a few angry responses, but I genuinely think Israel will absorb a large part of Gaza. If they retreat quickly after mission accomplished and let the people return I shall happily admit I was wrong. But a new ‘buffer zone’ which gradually gets filled with settlers is where I shall hedge my bets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 27, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 27, 2023 14 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: the Hamas health ministry have produced the list I’m not being a smart arse here, but realistically it seems highly likely that Hamas would always be the source, ultimately. I mean they are the only “Authority” such as there is one, in place. Any other source would be word of mouth collated guesstimates. It might be an accurate estimate, but it might not. Whichever, the damage and death wreaked on Gaza is appalling, whatever the body count. It’s an avoidable tragedy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 27, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 27, 2023 42 minutes ago, blandy said: That’s not it, but thanks for taking time to write that. In return I’ll try and explain better where I’m coming from. 1. Scott posted that (some unstated entity had said) 7000 civilians were killed. I expressed both curiosity (where did those numbers come from) and scepticism as to how anyone could know the number accurately, while also clearly saying that clearly from the images of the place a great number of people would have been killed. I expressed and have scepticism around both sides downplaying the harm they caused and perhaps exaggerating the harm the other side caused, or even who caused it. There’s a ton of propaganda out there. It’s hard to try and find the truth. I said I don’t believe Israel and I don’t believe Hamas. What irked me is that you took scepticism about where numbers came from, or whether they were entirely accurate as somehow suggesting that lives didn’t matter, (whether Palestinian or Israeli). I mean that’s just ludicrous, especially given how often I’ve posted ( not that you’re obliged to have read any of it) that what Israel is doing is abhorrent and both sides need to stop. I just despair at the utter futility and torment of all the killing, no good will come of it. Israel will not eliminate Hamas by bombing or invading Gaza. It’s bloodlust and revenge. So, maybe in asking for detail, sources and facts I appear “cold”, but don’t mix that with not wanting the killing and torment and maiming and collective punishment and terrorism in the Middle East to stop. Israel has an ogre of a government and Palestine has a sick parasite inside it. See, I don't see this at all. You're sceptical of the number, ok. Then say any number is bad. Ok. So why caution about propaganda via that scepticism if you think any number is bad? There's no logic to that. Which makes me think the point being made is actually the scepticism of the number, with the 'any is a tragedy' stuff is framing to deflect criticism of being sceptical about a pretty reasonable sounding number of dead people. Your second point I absolutely did not do and I'm not sure where you've even conjured that from. In my posts I sarcastically mocked what you said based on my reading of the initial post on this. Then I countered your response where you reiterate the just asking questions stuff about numbers by questioning why that matters by pointing out trains fo the number to be reasonable for the kind of activity that Israel is engaged in in the places it's hitting, and asking pointed questions about why the scepticism of that number exists, to what end, why, what difference would it make even if the figure was lower? At no point do I say that lives don't matter, I'm just trying to make sense of your strange need to have accurate numbers even though the numbers don't matter because any number is bad. I then posited the only thing I can think of why you'd make this point, which is you think the number is inflated for propaganda purposes. I did go back and read the last 25 pages, even the stuff I usually have on ignore, in the topic and you are reasonable, generally, but then I note you did like a post where my pointing out something is propaganda, of a level a school child could spot, was derided as morally bankrupt so I'm not inclined to be charitable when seeing a pretty clear case of downplaying the numbers, regardless of record. But I am very stupid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 27, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 27, 2023 58 minutes ago, blandy said: I’m not being a smart arse here, but realistically it seems highly likely that Hamas would always be the source, ultimately. I mean they are the only “Authority” such as there is one, in place. Any other source would be word of mouth collated guesstimates. It might be an accurate estimate, but it might not. Whichever, the damage and death wreaked on Gaza is appalling, whatever the body count. It’s an avoidable tragedy. indeed - but i think we have to trust the people that we employ to verify these things when they tell us that they are satisfied. To some extent it doesn't matter if the figures were produced by Murph and the Magictones - once they've been verified by the WHO, then it's fair to assume they have a basis in fact - the BBC for example is using those numbers as a matter of fact, and not adding on an "according to" as it has with a lot of other things in this conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post OutByEaster? Posted October 27, 2023 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted October 27, 2023 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 27, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 27, 2023 Israel. Great bunch of lads. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pongo Waring Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 Can Hamas win this war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YLN Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 More of this needed 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted October 27, 2023 Share Posted October 27, 2023 As horrible as this all is, it's also extremely bizarre at times. This looks like one of those mobile game ads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 4 hours ago, bobzy said: No comms, food, water or electricity but plenty of bombs. Nice way to treat civilians. I expect 10s of thousands of " Human shields ", sleeper cell Hamas terrorists posing as children, women and incubators will be slaughtered by the end of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Pongo Waring said: Can Hamas win this war? Lol... I really don't think people realise what is unfolding here. The repercussions and retribution for this will probably affect us all. They are in essence making sure the hatred and anger outgrows " Hamas " 100 fold. If you think this is just about " Hamas " it's extremely short sighted. They are actively creating enemies, terrorists and militias which will probably outlive us. If they can't " win the war " i expect there will be a rise in terrorism and attempts on Western interests everywhere. Piss poor immigration standards and open borders won't be helping this either. I always wonder if in the quest for " PC " people consider that " If I were a terrorist who wanted nothing more than the downfall of a nation and revenge, couldn't I just blend in with immigrants/refugees, integrate into the society and play the long game " Aside from this, the anger is spreading beyond regions, religions and nationalities. In my opinion, this is an absolute stain on humanity. I saw someone comment on a post " When I was younger, I used to read about great tragedies, wars, genocide and wondered how the human race would allow that to happen, and now I'm witnessing this in real time " You cannot bomb out an " ideology " ffs!!! Edited October 28, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 19 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: I saw someone comment on a post " When I was younger, I used to read about great tragedies, wars, genocide and wondered how the human race would allow that to happen, and now I'm witnessing this in real time " It can be seen in Ukraine too. The world will talk about “should have done more” for decades like they did with Hitler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 Genuine question - what would some of the proposals be to resolve this conflict and the two state solution? Nobel peace prize stuff, but actual thoughts on it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 It's looking extremely grim tonight 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy54 Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 Lots of interesting discussion and points of view but I am still waiting for someone to suggest the possible answers to the following questions. What was the objectives of the massacre of Israeli civilians by hamas? What did hamas hope to achieve? What outcomes did hamas expect from this? What did they think was going to be the Israeli response? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 1 hour ago, delboy54 said: Lots of interesting discussion and points of view but I am still waiting for someone to suggest the possible answers to the following questions. What was the objectives of the massacre of Israeli civilians by hamas? What did hamas hope to achieve? What outcomes did hamas expect from this? What did they think was going to be the Israeli response? Why does any uprising happen? A group who are/believe to be persecuted and imprisoned start an uprising. They know they are outnumbered and know the punishment will be severe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-k Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 19 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Why does any uprising happen? A group who are/believe to be persecuted and imprisoned start an uprising. They know they are outnumbered and know the punishment will be severe. A terrorist organization slaughtering 1000 innocent civilians in cold-blood in not an uprising. Citizens of Gaza are just as imprisoned by Hamas-, why not an uprising against them? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 28, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2023 7 hours ago, Pongo Waring said: Can Hamas win this war? In so far as you can call this a war, no, of course they can't. A people living in awful conditions, with little hope for the future, imprisoned and occupied by their powerful neighbour carried out a futile attack on it in the most horrendous way imaginable, and that neighbour, driven insane by anger and grief is lashing out in a way that will result in hundreds of thousands of deaths and change the map of the region forever. Israel will win this 'war' but they'll lose an awful lot as a result - I'm not sure the world will easily learn to trust again a nation that commits a genocide on this scale. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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