a-k Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 13 minutes ago, Genie said: Players have got very good at initiating contact and making it look like a foul. Maybe awarding an indirect free kick instead of a penalty would help with “fouls” in the box? I can’t see a way that the refs can look at most of these and confidently determine if it was a foul or a robbery. I thought about making a new thread about this to see what people thought, but it may not be the solution. E.g., if a penalty was given for a stopping a clear goal scoring opportunity and an indirect free kick given for other fouls in the box (i.e., Trez v Brighton), refs will still find a way to subjectively bias what they perceive to be a pen vs indirect free kick. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 Just now, a-k said: I thought about making a new thread about this to see what people thought, but it may not be the solution. E.g., if a penalty was given for a stopping a clear goal scoring opportunity and an indirect free kick given for other fouls in the box (i.e., Trez v Brighton), refs will still find a way to subjectively bias what they perceive to be a pen vs indirect free kick. Yeah, good point. I was just trying to think of a way around it because it’s become too difficult to determine who initiated the contact now. By watering down the “prize” then it might be an option but probably unviable. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 11 minutes ago, The_Steve said: Again. How is VAR taking such little time but wasting minutes measuring sleeve length and armpit offsides? Looks the correct call to me. Initial contact is just outside the box but he clatters into him and the contact (Alioski's thigh to the top of Bergwijn's leg) continues to the line/just inside the box so by the rules a penalty. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted January 2, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted January 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Rino8 said: If something 'could' be a penalty its basically a given now. Makes it more interesting doesn't it? Gooooals. Penalties are being awarded for nothing yet they are going out of their way to find reasons to rule out good legitimate goals from open play, as if spot kicks are more rewarding. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fightoffyour Posted January 2, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted January 2, 2021 (edited) Double post so...**** VAR Edited January 2, 2021 by fightoffyour 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted January 2, 2021 Share Posted January 2, 2021 34 minutes ago, fightoffyour said: In the current rules it is, and much, much softer ones were given plentifully earlier in the season. If you think that it shouldn’t be handball in the rules then fair enough, I’d be inclined to agree, but the current rules should be implemented. They’ve softened the rules following the overly-harsh penalties given earlier in the season. It’s just not handball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 10 hours ago, a-k said: I thought about making a new thread about this to see what people thought, but it may not be the solution. E.g., if a penalty was given for a stopping a clear goal scoring opportunity and an indirect free kick given for other fouls in the box (i.e., Trez v Brighton), refs will still find a way to subjectively bias what they perceive to be a pen vs indirect free kick. I've said it before but for a free shot from 12 yards that is unobstructured there is so many cheap penalties given for hardly anything e.g. start of the season when defenders were having shots blasted against them and handball was given. Of course you still get a penalty if you're running through and get pulled or hacked down but I wouldn't be against indirect free kicks being a new law if it's a very soft foul, just like you'd get for a backpass. In the late 90s obstruction was actually still classed as indirect free kick so you didn't always get a penalty. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornso Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 16 hours ago, bobzy said: They’ve softened the rules following the overly-harsh penalties given earlier in the season. It’s just not handball. That’s fine, but there has no communication to the fans (maybe the clubs?). It’s not hard to be transparent and avoid this crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blunther Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 (edited) 21 hours ago, bobzy said: I don’t think it’s anywhere near “corruption” and some of the comments on this are embarrassing. However, they got lucky - again. They get 'lucky' every match... How isn't that corrupt? It's not this one debatable penalty in isolation, it's that refs are looking for any excuse to give Man United an advantage over time. Man United are the Premier League's biggest brand. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that they want their biggest brand toward the top so they can sell more of their 'product' to Man U 'fans' elsewhere in the world. Imagine how much interest a title battle between Man U and Liverpool will generate abroad. Wrestling has shown us that even choreographed 'sport' can bring in plenty of money. That's all it's about for those in charge. Money. Edited January 3, 2021 by blunther 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 29 minutes ago, blunther said: They get 'lucky' every match... How isn't that corrupt? It's not this one debatable penalty in isolation, it's that refs are looking for any excuse to give Man United an advantage over time. Man United are the Premier League's biggest brand. It's not beyond the realm of possibility that they want their biggest brand toward the top so they can sell more of their 'product' to Man U 'fans' elsewhere in the world. Imagine how much interest a title battle between Man U and Liverpool will generate abroad. Wrestling has shown us that even choreographed 'sport' can bring in plenty of money. That's all it's about for those in charge. Money. So I suppose the answer would be, show me where they get “lucky” in every match and then also provide where they don’t get given decisions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Hornso said: That’s fine, but there has no communication to the fans (maybe the clubs?). It’s not hard to be transparent and avoid this crap. I knew about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hornso Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 1 minute ago, bobzy said: I knew about it... Could have passed it on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 31 minutes ago, Hornso said: Could have passed it on... I knew about it too. They released a coloured red/green graphic showing where “handball” starts and ends and also added the restriction that the arm needed to be in an “un-natural” position to be a penalty. We have even discussed it in this thread a few weeks back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 Latest rules: The ball touches a hand/arm that is clearly raised above the shoulder.The hand/arm is clearly away from the body & outside the body line.A deflection clearly makes no difference to the ball touching a hand/arm that is clearly extended away from the body and/or above the shoulder. Fwiw I'm absolutely allergic to rules changes during the season, even if it's and "improvement". The rules laid down at the start of the season is the rules that should apply as long as it isn't life or death matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Genie Posted January 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 3, 2021 People get annoyed and frustrated by a refereeing mistake but there is an acceptance that they are human and have to make a snap decision. With VAR they make the rules, agree how to apply them, have all the technology at their fingertips and the ability to freeze the game whilst they get to the right decisions. It SHOULD be 99.999% correct, but it isn’t. Which is the shittest part. All the disruption without the benefit of being right. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 14 minutes ago, Genie said: People get annoyed and frustrated by a refereeing mistake but there is an acceptance that they are human and have to make a snap decision. With VAR they make the rules, agree how to apply them, have all the technology at their fingertips and the ability to freeze the game whilst they get to the right decisions. It SHOULD be 99.999% correct, but it isn’t. Which is the shittest part. All the disruption without the benefit of being right. With the Pogba penalty and VAR it’ll get given every time because of the contact. Without VAR the on pitch referee could have waved it away as a coming together, a contact as part of the game or because he felt it was initiated by Pogba himself. All over in a flash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 34 minutes ago, sne said: Latest rules: The ball touches a hand/arm that is clearly raised above the shoulder.The hand/arm is clearly away from the body & outside the body line.A deflection clearly makes no difference to the ball touching a hand/arm that is clearly extended away from the body and/or above the shoulder. Fwiw I'm absolutely allergic to rules changes during the season, even if it's and "improvement". The rules laid down at the start of the season is the rules that should apply as long as it isn't life or death matters. From that (pretty poor) footage, it appears that the ball hits Maguire’s head and then goes down onto his arm - so the deflection makes a massive difference; the ball wouldn’t hit his arm without it. Via the rules it’s not a penalty and, in any case, I’d never want to see that given as a penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, bobzy said: From that (pretty poor) footage, it appears that the ball hits Maguire’s head and then goes down onto his arm - so the deflection makes a massive difference; the ball wouldn’t hit his arm without it. Via the rules it’s not a penalty and, in any case, I’d never want to see that given as a penalty. The rules are whatever they need to be any given game or week usually. Refs and VAR do what they like and never has to justify anything. Rules are just lose guidelines and always have been. For next season I'd like to see a implementation that is if the player gains an advantage from it then it's a penalty. And I certainly doesn't want to have different rules for defenders than there is for attackers like we have today. Maguire has his arms above his shoulders and (by accident) controls the ball so it drops to his feet where Davies is first to react.. Is it a penalty? Sometimes it is. Edit: Davies first to react, not Maguire. Edited January 3, 2021 by sne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, sne said: The rules are whatever they need to be any given game or week usually. Refs and VAR do what they like and never has to justify anything. Rules are just lose guidelines and always have been. For next season I'd like to see a implementation that is if the player gains an advantage from it then it's a penalty. And I certainly doesn't want to have different rules for defenders than there is for attackers like we have today. Maguire has his arms above his shoulders and (by accident) controls the ball so it drops advantageously for him. Is it a penalty? Sometimes it is. Didn’t it drop to the feet of Davis who then had a shot blocked? Edited January 3, 2021 by bobzy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted January 3, 2021 Share Posted January 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, bobzy said: Didn’t it drop to the feet of Davis who then had a shot blocked? True, from the slow mo it looks like it first rolls off the top of his arm and that he after that pushes the ball down with the underside of his arm. By accident but still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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