tinker Posted March 31, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 31, 2022 15 hours ago, magnkarl said: Time for Sweden and Finland to join NATO, they're already well integrated with drills and procedures. There's nothing to lose. I don't think those planes were threatening Sweden or Finland , they was probably enroute to their number one distractor in Europe....... Looks like this war is being treated like other wars, Syria , Afghanistan...... By leading nations from around the world ,outside of Europe. These countries will fuel it with money and weapons and Russia and the Ukrainians will pay with the lives of their people and Europe will pay with instability and inflation. It's only what we have done with wars in other parts of the world and its really coming home to roost. The western world and its behaviour is being challenged. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted March 31, 2022 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2022 7 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I’m finding myself constantly looking negative as I’m constantly trying to give balance. So I’m going to duck out and just be a reader of the happy tweets about liberated tanks. I don't know anything about most of any of this, so tend to just comment if I do know something - I've no idea about army tactics, the number of casualties, international affairs/relationships between nations, likely outcomes, tanks, artillery and a million other things. I am sceptical of what is reported, what is propaganda and suspect there is a significant degree of wishful thinking tending to bias what the media, politicians and others report or say on each side and that this can be reflected in people's posts. Also when I read or see a TV report about the absolute carnage and destruction and death and suffering and maiming going on, I'm kind of overwhelmed by it. It's incomprehensible from a distance. But the little stories about tractors towing tanks away, or people making rude signs or sunflower seeds, or whatever. They're nice. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 8 minutes ago, tinker said: I don't think those planes were threatening Sweden or Finland , they was probably enroute to their number one distractor in Europe....... Looks like this war is being treated like other wars, Syria , Afghanistan...... By leading nations from around the world ,outside of Europe. These countries will fuel it with money and weapons and Russia and the Ukrainians will pay with the lives of their people and Europe will pay with instability and inflation. It's only what we have done with wars in other parts of the world and its really coming home to roost. The western world and its behaviour is being challenged. Do you think Ukraine should be abandoned by its supporters to avoid “instability and inflation” in Europe, or is it that the west isn’t doing enough to support Ukraine that you’re taking issue with? Edited March 31, 2022 by Awol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 31, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 31, 2022 8 minutes ago, tinker said: I don't think those planes were threatening Sweden or Finland , they was probably enroute to their number one distractor in Europe....... No, they definitely were. You don't fly into another countries airspace with nukes onboard and not consider it a threat It's not a serious threat, but it was a test, it happens all the time, it isn't an accident. It's only reportworthy because of the weaponry onboard. They weren't flying in an attacking formation but the intention was to test the response and show off the nukes It's a very strange tactic because it can only result in Sweden eventually being more likely to actually join NATO but the Russians won't view it like that, they'll view it as sending a warning of what could happen if they do join NATO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted March 31, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 31, 2022 40 minutes ago, Awol said: Do you think Ukraine should be abandoned by its supporters to avoid “instability and inflation” in Europe, or is it that the west isn’t doing enough to support Ukraine that you’re taking issue with? No, I think we have made mistakes in the past, well our leader have, fighting wars or enabling wars ( supplying weapons) in regions far from Europe and have reaped the rewards and ignored the moral implications. Now countries like China and India are supplying support to Russia and probably the Ukraine by supplying them with weapons and finance to fight a war that's far from their continents. Ukraine and the Russian people are paying the price for all of this and Europe and America have no moral high ground because of their own behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted March 31, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 31, 2022 42 minutes ago, bickster said: No, they definitely were. You don't fly into another countries airspace with nukes onboard and not consider it a threat It's not a serious threat, but it was a test, it happens all the time, it isn't an accident. It's only reportworthy because of the weaponry onboard. They weren't flying in an attacking formation but the intention was to test the response and show off the nukes It's a very strange tactic because it can only result in Sweden eventually being more likely to actually join NATO but the Russians won't view it like that, they'll view it as sending a warning of what could happen if they do join NATO. It is a threat to them, however they flew through Finland and into Swedens airspace , it's a direct route to the UK. If they had flown any further towards the UK then we would have to launch our response which would mean our nukes in the air. Dangerous times for us . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted March 31, 2022 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2022 7 minutes ago, tinker said: It is a threat to them, however they flew through Finland and into Swedens airspace , it's a direct route to the UK. If they had flown any further towards the UK then we would have to launch our response which would mean our nukes in the air. Dangerous times for us . The UK part is not correct "we would have to launch our response which would mean our nukes in the air". The UK response to intruding threats is to escort them away from UK airspace, failing that to force them to land/ditch and failing that shoot them down. No nukes involved. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Silvers Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Worth a shufty. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted March 31, 2022 Moderator Share Posted March 31, 2022 I predict people will say Russia is going to win and Boris Johnson will be PM even after he dies based on the fact that Led by Donkeys have got involved 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Awol Posted March 31, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2022 26 minutes ago, tinker said: No, I think we have made mistakes in the past, well our leader have, fighting wars or enabling wars ( supplying weapons) in regions far from Europe and have reaped the rewards and ignored the moral implications. Now countries like China and India are supplying support to Russia and probably the Ukraine by supplying them with weapons and finance to fight a war that's far from their continents. Ukraine and the Russian people are paying the price for all of this and Europe and America have no moral high ground because of their own behaviour. Got you, thanks. No question that the US and Europe have done some moody stuff over the years and don’t have clean hands. That doesn’t mean that helping Ukraine to protect itself during an unprovoked invasion is wrong, cynical, or not taking the moral high ground in this case. India is looking out for its own economic interests and won’t compromise them for the sake of supporting the western position, but does very much want Russian equipment and western support in balancing China - which in turn supports Russia in Ukraine and elsewhere. Russia is clearly and obviously the aggressor in Ukraine and committing massive war crimes (deliberately targeting civilians and destroying cities with no military value), so it’s not really a ‘six of one, half a dozen of the other’ scenario. Finally the Ukrainian people are fighting because they want to, if being an independent democratic state didn’t matter to them they could just let Russia have its way. They are suffering because of Russia, no one else. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: I’m finding myself constantly looking negative as I’m constantly trying to give balance. So I’m going to duck out and just be a reader of the happy tweets about liberated tanks. The question of how positive/negative one is is highly dependant on the belief on Russian political/military aims of this war. If one thinks that Russia wanted to take over Ukraine from day 1 and destroy Kiev, kill Zelensky, install a puppet government, well, they are failing. In fact, they are a laughing stock. If one thinks that the real aim might be to call the western NATO bluff and prevent that from happening, it looks like they will succeed. They will also possibly gain the Donbas region and connect it with Crimea. Maybe Putin thinks that losing numerous planes, helicopters, countless tanks is a price worth paying. I read an interesting review saying that Russia's political aims highly outweigh the military ones in this conflict. The real tragedy of this war is that to succeed in these aims, whatever they are, thousands of innocent people and young soldiers will die. Edited March 31, 2022 by Mic09 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 European states with the most skin in the game are getting tired of waiting for the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Does anyone know how Russia has manipulated the Rubble to pre war value. This makes no sense and should be impossible to achieve legally I suspect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cizzler Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 6 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: Does anyone know how Russia has manipulated the Rubble to pre war value. This makes no sense and should be impossible to achieve legally I suspect? The Ruble rate is not a meaningful reflection of the Russian economy. The WSJ did a good article on this a few days pack. It’s behind a paywall - but you can find the article here if interested: https://jnews.uk/how-russias-central-bank-engineered-the-rubles-rebound/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 6 minutes ago, Cizzler said: The Ruble rate is not a meaningful reflection of the Russian economy. The WSJ did a good article on this a few days pack. It’s behind a paywall - but you can find the article here if interested: https://jnews.uk/how-russias-central-bank-engineered-the-rubles-rebound/ Interesting, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 4 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: Interesting, thanks. I found this a very useful thread on the subject: This video also suggests that an important factor has been the selling ban on foreigners selling Russian stocks, which would have put further downward pressure on the ruble: Key section from 4:35 onwards (though note that the bit about Russia forcing nations to pay for gas in rubles has since been walked back by the Russian government, so that doesn't look like it will happen, at least at this stage). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Saw on the news yesterday,three Russian tanks left abandoned after Ukrain troops attacked and the Russians ran away.Surley China and Korea are looking at different countries to partner ?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 Russia employing group with known Nazi origins/links (Wagner Group) in order to de-nazify Ukraine. Putin continues to troll the entire world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 3 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: I found this a very useful thread on the subject: This video also suggests that an important factor has been the selling ban on foreigners selling Russian stocks, which would have put further downward pressure on the ruble: Key section from 4:35 onwards (though note that the bit about Russia forcing nations to pay for gas in rubles has since been walked back by the Russian government, so that doesn't look like it will happen, at least at this stage). no, change of plan again, here it is in fact happening: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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