magnkarl Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Surely the speed at which UA artillery is responding to Russian firing positions indicate that NATO is feeding an enormous amount of data to the Ukrainians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 1 minute ago, sidcow said: I know that a lot of commentators say that Putins power is absolute and he's surrounded himself with his own cronies to make himself untouchable, reigning with a rod of iron. But isn't that essentially what every dictator in history has done yet they still tend to get toppled from within? The people around him are veterans of the intelligence community, if there’s to be a coup it’ll have to come from the military - imo. Smashing their source of power to bits in Ukraine is the fastest way to encourage that outcome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 15 minutes ago, sidcow said: I know that a lot of commentators say that Putins power is absolute and he's surrounded himself with his own cronies to make himself untouchable, reigning with a rod of iron. But isn't that essentially what every dictator in history has done yet they still tend to get toppled from within? Its his mates and most are underqualified. he has sacked anybody who has an alternative opinion and has put his mates ahead of the oligarchs who were his listening board before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoelVilla Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 That narrative is really stupid to me. Talk about NATO expansion and then you excuse Russian politics. If the small scared men in Kremlin were open to a free and democratic Russia NATO would be a non-issue. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 34 minutes ago, NoelVilla said: That narrative is really stupid to me. Talk about NATO expansion and then you excuse Russian politics. If the small scared men in Kremlin were open to a free and democratic Russia NATO would be a non-issue. Agreed. And judging by the truly horrific videos of Russian soldiers indiscriminately shooting civilians in the streets of Kharkiv and Mariupol - there's no excuse anymore. There's evil in that country, and there's plenty of evil in the Russian military psyche too. They were flattening Aleppo, now they're flattening major European cities and not caring about the consequences. If this regime existed in the 30's, it'd join the Axis in a heartbeat along with all the other fascists. Edited March 17, 2022 by magnkarl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 7 minutes ago, NoelVilla said: That narrative is really stupid to me. Talk about NATO expansion and then you excuse Russian politics. If the small scared men in Kremlin were open to a free and democratic Russia NATO would be a non-issue. “Your political pluralism, religious freedom, and rule of law are a threat to my authority.” 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 Republican Senators making statements that Biden needs to do more for Ukraine but 31 of them voted against more military aid *last week*. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted March 17, 2022 Author Share Posted March 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Agreed. And judging by the truly horrific videos of Russian soldiers indiscriminately shooting civilians in the streets of Kharkiv and Mariupol - there's no excuse anymore. There's evil in that country, and there's plenty of evil in the Russian military psyche too. They were flatting Aleppo, now they're flatting major European cities and not caring about the consequences. If this regime existed in the 30's, it'd join the Axis in a heartbeat along with all the other fascists. The "us against the world" mentality there is dangerous. They think they are a glorious nation and a superior culture that deserves to be revered, respected and feared. And they have a massive chip on their shoulder that manifests in barbarism. If this turns into open genocide, which is looking more likely if not already happening, the West will need to do something more than just deliver weaponry and provide intelligence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlyDirk Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, maqroll said: The "us against the world" mentality there is dangerous. They think they are a glorious nation and a superior culture that deserves to be revered, respected and feared. And they have a massive chip on their shoulder that manifests in barbarism. If this turns into open genocide, which is looking more likely if not already happening, the West will need to do something more than just deliver weaponry and provide intelligence. Totally agree. Part of me is actually wondering if this is the ultimate goal of Putin, mass conflict. Not sure why, but there seems to be an escalation to how they're going about meeting their aims. This is, at the core national terrorism whichever way you slice it, targeting civilian infrastructure, mass casualties, use of older WWII ordnance (search youtube for CNN captures Russian Soldiers) with no precision guiding systems, Russian Soldiers openly shooting civilians in the street indiscriminately (Examples being those queuing to get bread in street is absolutely shocking).... Surprised no one picked up the Ukrainian minister claiming that some Russain Soldiers were raping Ukrainian women, that was mentioned about a week ago but no one seemed to run with it.... The point is, it's all lawless, there's no boundaries to what they're carrying out anymore, complete disregard for the ICJ too... Where do they escalate from here? Chemical Weapons is looking likely - I think that'll be the flashpoint for NATO to do more than just supply arms, aid and intel. I'm thinking they're currently hoping for a coup at the Kremlin, but how long do you wait for something like that? Disclaimer - I am aware that some of the stuff we're seeing from the West can be seen to be Propaganda too, but there's more than enough evidence to show that the Russian Army are carrying out War Crimes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 3 minutes ago, DeadlyDirk said: Totally agree. Part of me is actually wondering if this is the ultimate goal of Putin, mass conflict. Not sure why, but there seems to be an escalation to how they're going about meeting their aims. This is, at the core national terrorism whichever way you slice it, targeting civilian infrastructure, mass casualties, use of older WWII ordnance (search youtube for CNN captures Russian Soldiers) with no precision guiding systems, Russian Soldiers openly shooting civilians in the street indiscriminately (Examples being those queuing to get bread in street is absolutely shocking).... Surprised no one picked up the Ukrainian minister claiming that some Russain Soldiers were raping Ukrainian women, that was mentioned about a week ago but no one seemed to run with it.... The point is, it's all lawless, there's no boundaries to what they're carrying out anymore, complete disregard for the ICJ too... Where do they escalate from here? Chemical Weapons is looking likely - I think that'll be the flashpoint for NATO to do more than just supply arms, aid and intel. I'm thinking they're currently hoping for a coup at the Kremlin, but how long do you wait for something like that? Disclaimer - I am aware that some of the stuff we're seeing from the West can be seen to be Propaganda too, but there's more than enough evidence to show that the Russian Army are carrying out War Crimes. I'm wondering, as @Awol has said before, if the West is now considering when and not if a war with Russia would be best. We need to get patriot and aegis systems into Ukraine ASAP, so that Ukraine can stop the indiscriminate shelling themselves. The old Soviet states in NATO need to throw all the old S-300 systems they have (Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, Romania) as soon as they can so civilians can be safeguarded from the missiles Russia will employ once their 'accurate' missiles run out. Not that it seems to matter, Russia is killing civilians even with their guided ordinance. If Russia attacks with chemical weapons I also think the UN will likely send in peace keeping troops, and even the likes of China will have to step in and condemn Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 We have seen the severe acts of Russia, but the way Nato have been reiterating not getting involved, it's gonna take a missile to land in a Nato country to get them moving. Might even take more than 1. I think they are hoping it stays in Ukraine, but setting up the UK's air defence systems in Poland is a little worrying, is it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) It’s seems quite clear NATO are already involved to a degree (as the UK, US, Poland, Turkey etc). Edited March 17, 2022 by Genie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 22 minutes ago, DeadlyDirk said: Totally agree. Part of me is actually wondering if this is the ultimate goal of Putin, mass conflict. Not sure why, but there seems to be an escalation to how they're going about meeting their aims. This is, at the core national terrorism whichever way you slice it, targeting civilian infrastructure, mass casualties, use of older WWII ordnance (search youtube for CNN captures Russian Soldiers) with no precision guiding systems, Russian Soldiers openly shooting civilians in the street indiscriminately (Examples being those queuing to get bread in street is absolutely shocking).... Surprised no one picked up the Ukrainian minister claiming that some Russain Soldiers were raping Ukrainian women, that was mentioned about a week ago but no one seemed to run with it.... The point is, it's all lawless, there's no boundaries to what they're carrying out anymore, complete disregard for the ICJ too... Where do they escalate from here? Chemical Weapons is looking likely - I think that'll be the flashpoint for NATO to do more than just supply arms, aid and intel. I'm thinking they're currently hoping for a coup at the Kremlin, but how long do you wait for something like that? Disclaimer - I am aware that some of the stuff we're seeing from the West can be seen to be Propaganda too, but there's more than enough evidence to show that the Russian Army are carrying out War Crimes. Sorry and I am not defending Russia by any means and what we are seeing out there is horrific. But in almost any war there will be civilian casualties, men, women and children. (Precision strikes are largely a myth) - There were some horrible scenes in Iraq for US/UK bombing raids - As there almost Annually when Israel bombs the Palestinians. Remember the picture of the smiling service lady next to a load of dead iraqi soldiers ? We need to take what we are hearing with a massive dose of salt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 Whatever happened to the talks \ consequences of China helping Russia ? Im hoping Putin isn't stalling for that assistance to arrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedClaretAndBlue Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, hippo said: Whatever happened to the talks \ consequences of China helping Russia ? Im hoping Putin isn't stalling for that assistance to arrive. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Lichfield Dean Posted March 17, 2022 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted March 17, 2022 Another moving speech from the man himself: 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 42 minutes ago, hippo said: Whatever happened to the talks \ consequences of China helping Russia ? Im hoping Putin isn't stalling for that assistance to arrive. My guess would be that China would string Russia along but would love to see them hobbled and will swoop in for the pickings afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted March 17, 2022 Share Posted March 17, 2022 (edited) 41 minutes ago, LondonLax said: My guess would be that China would string Russia along but would love to see them hobbled and will swoop in for the pickings afterwards. Thats completely against the pact Russia and china signed only a few weeks ago. With NATO beefing up the Ukraine hardware - it would seem extremely optimistic to expect China not to do likewise for Russia Edited March 17, 2022 by hippo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted March 17, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted March 17, 2022 I tell you what, if Ukraine have any find of capability to mount a proper counter offensive I would love them to take out the forces surrounding Mariupol. Rain hell down on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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