CVByrne Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 17 minutes ago, hippo said: A story that will surely break - or shift up the agenda in the coming days - in a word 'Germany' Germany has built a pipeline that connects to Russia - Nordstream 2. If this goes ahead Germany will have a reliable source of clean and inexpensive energy - Russia will see a significant boost to its gas revenues. This will over time provide Russia with a key allie in Europe - and overtime could undermine Nato Yes, Germany is culpable here. Their aversion to Nuclear power has resulted in them being dependent on Russian Oil and Gas. Germany needs to shift and take French expertise in building Nuclear power. It produces no greenhouse gases. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 20 minutes ago, NoelVilla said: Is this maybe not going so well for them? Ukraine has cut off diplomatic ties, and Putin just lies to everyone so he's obviously not going to stop now until he's conquered all of Ukraine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, CVByrne said: It's called Nato, if he advances further west he's creating a full scale war with Nato and he has massive fears of that. He'd have an uprising at home in Russia to try depose him while fighting a vastly superior force on multiple fronts. He knows once a country is part of Nato he can't do anything. This is why he's invaded Ukraine to stop it every being part of Nato Yeah, I get all of that, but the risk still remains that this mad man might potentially have a pop at another neighbour after Ukraine. Yes NATO is extremely powerful and the likely eventual winner of any military action with Russia, but it would cost billions of dollars and thousands of lives. Nobody in the Western world wants that at any time, especially after a pandemic. Nobody thought he’d go through will a full, unprovoked military invasion of a sovereign country a few weeks ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, CVByrne said: Ukraine has cut off diplomatic ties, and Putin just lies to everyone so he's obviously not going to stop now until he's conquered all of Ukraine Yep, I’m not sure what high level negotiations could achieve anyway. Putin wants Ukraine and Ukraine doesn’t want Putin, there is no half way house here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, Genie said: Yeah, I get all of that, but the risk still remains that this mad man might potentially have a pop at another neighbour after Ukraine. Yes NATO is extremely powerful and the likely eventual winner of any military action with Russia, but it would cost billions of dollars and thousands of lives. Nobody in the Western world wants that at any time, especially after a pandemic. Nobody thought he’d go through will a full, unprovoked military invasion of a sovereign country a few weeks ago. For what aim? Why just attack Latvia for example? attacking a Nato country and a member of the EU? Only reason to attack a Nato country or EU member is for territorial expansion and that is starting WW3. Invading Ukraine is something he can and obviously has done because they were in the Russian sphere until 2014 and now he's taking it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, Genie said: Nobody thought he’d go through will a full, unprovoked military invasion of a sovereign country a few weeks ago. But they did think that! They’ve been saying for weeks this is going to happen in the coming days but just when was the unknown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 8 minutes ago, CVByrne said: He had a war in Georgia yes, Crimea is/was part of Ukraine. Also he sent Russian army to Syria too. Syria was interesting , in so much as Russia propped up Assad and made US military intervention pretty much useless .. we even had cases of US airstrikes that had to pre-warn Russia it was coming , just in case the US inflicted Russian casualties , presumably that call ended with "and please Mr Putin don't tell Assad we are coming " I did wonder if the USA or NATO had whacked a load of units in Ukraine if a similar risk would have stopped Russia invading ... or escalated the conflict , ie Putin can say , look at the Western aggressors getting ready to invade us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calcifer Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, Genie said: Yeah, I get all of that, but the risk still remains that this mad man might potentially have a pop at another neighbour after Ukraine. Yes NATO is extremely powerful and the likely eventual winner of any military action with Russia, but it would cost billions of dollars and thousands of lives. Nobody in the Western world wants that at any time, especially after a pandemic. Nobody thought he’d go through will a full, unprovoked military invasion of a sovereign country a few weeks ago. There would be no winner as this looney is not be afraid to use a nuke. Could but smoke and mirrors but nothing is off the table with mad Vlad!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, nick76 said: Yep, I’m not sure what high level negotiations could achieve anyway. Putin wants Ukraine and Ukraine doesn’t want Putin, there is no half way house here. Yeah he'll put in a Pro Russian puppet and then job done 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted February 25, 2022 Moderator Share Posted February 25, 2022 28 minutes ago, hippo said: A story that will surely break - or shift up the agenda in the coming days - in a word 'Germany' Germany has built a pipeline that connects to Russia - Nordstream 2. If this goes ahead Germany will have a reliable source of clean and inexpensive energy - Russia will see a significant boost to its gas revenues. This will over time provide Russia with a key allie in Europe - and overtime could undermine Nato I don't agree with that. Currently Gas goes through Ukraine to Europe, and the NS pipeline has been built to take it directly instead. This (if opened) will deprive Ukraine of revenue from allowing the gas to go via their territory, but it won't change the nature or reliability of the gas Germany uses for energy, will it? And the dependency on Russia will remain. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 (edited) I don’t think anything is off the table as it stands, he’s invaded the neighbour and threatening nuclear strikes on anyone who intervenes. We can’t just assume he’ll stop there because it’s a bit mental to push West, what he’s doing now is already a bit mental. Edited February 25, 2022 by Genie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 32 minutes ago, hippo said: A story that will surely break - or shift up the agenda in the coming days - in a word 'Germany' Germany has built a pipeline that connects to Russia - Nordstream 2. I keep hearing about Nordstream 2 , but no mention of Nordstream ( 1) which pretty much runs the same route best I can tell ? its also a Gazprom venture (51% owned) with NL and Germany both owning around 15% is Nord 2 just a political football in all this ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 4 minutes ago, Genie said: Yeah, I get all of that, but the risk still remains that this mad man might potentially have a pop at another neighbour after Ukraine. Yes NATO is extremely powerful and the likely eventual winner of any military action with Russia, but it would cost billions of dollars and thousands of lives. Nobody in the Western world wants that at any time, especially after a pandemic. Nobody thought he’d go through will a full, unprovoked military invasion of a sovereign country a few weeks ago. Putin really isn't mad. He is cold, calculating, clearly an evil man. I appreciate what you are saying, but Ukraine has not been a sticking point since 2 weeks ago - it's been that for 30 years. Not to mention the wealth of the natural resources of Ukraine which must be appealing to Putin. I am in two minds about this - I cannot imagine Putin invading Estonia or Latvia, let alone Poland. But, while that is a cold calculation, I am also weary of the western leadership reaction. If Putin decided he fancied going west, how would Europe/NATO react? Would the world risk a 3rd world war because of Estonia? Surely, they would have to call Putin's bluff and go all in? Putin might fancy seeing how much he can rock the boat. But I think Ukraine is as far as it goes. I don't know. Biden clearly stated that they will use full power to protect NATO allies, but reality can prove much different. On one hand, the American public is opposed to getting militarily involved in Ukraine, but we all know USA likes to get that military industrial complex happy. I don't think Putin will attack the west. But while I was prepared to bet on it last month, I am not so sure now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 It's possible Russia will stop once the eastern part of Ukraine is conquered. Annex Kyiv and everything East of there. Might suit him better to have a Ukraine rump and Belarus between Russia and Poland/Hungary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talldarkandransome Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 The amount of 'experts' the BBC are having on zoom I'm fully expecting Harry Rednapp to show his face exclaiming that Vlad is a top kid 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 25, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 25, 2022 There's a big difference between taking Ukraine and pushing into NATO territory. Ukraine is a friend of the West and we will make some effort to help, but we're not going to get involved with troops. NATO on the other hand exists to provide defensive support against an aggressor, and it's most important article is an attack on 1 is an attack on all. Putin's not gone mad, he's not lost his mind and ready to go toe to toe with the entirety of the NATO in a war. He's been working his way into Ukraine and sowing discontent in the bordering nations of NATO as part of a long term strategy, and he's taken Ukraine now because he knows he can. If he wants NATO territory, he'll play a long game to pull territories out of the alliance and install either puppet governments or, of the time and situation is right and they are no longer NATO affiliates, he will do exactly what he has done in Ukraine. But that's a long game, and may never happen. But that is the only way he takes a NATO member. Biden's comments and actions were to reassure and reinforce the alliance with troops and supplies to the Eastern border was to stamp that home - is to remind Putin that NATO isn't backing down in the unlikely event he does try anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow1988 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Putin really isn't mad. He is cold, calculating, clearly an evil man. I used to think this as well, however I'm starting to think now that he has gone mad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, Talldarkandransome said: The amount of 'experts' the BBC are having on zoom I'm fully expecting Harry Rednapp to show his face exclaiming that Vlad is a top kid He would call in niko kranjcar as his eastern political expert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turvontour Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 2 hours ago, Herman22 said: There’s a term I hear for this and I think it works well. Footballisation. It’s when you support your “team” no matter what. In this case your team is Tories, Labour, Brexit, anti-Brexit, etc. What this leads to is unwavering support no matter what. And in politics being able to change your mind is one of the most important and fundamental things you can do. Great example of this at the Watford game last week, loads of people around me vocally blaming the referee or the Watford players cheating for the defeat. I was quite loudly saying that this is on Gerrard and Villa. It's being blind to the bad that you follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted February 25, 2022 Share Posted February 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said: 6 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Putin really isn't mad. He is cold, calculating, clearly an evil man. I used to think this as well, however I'm starting to think now that he has gone mad. I’m with Mic09 on this. He knows the West won’t really do much more than sanctions and supplying weapons and so he’s prepared to take the sanctions on the chin, feels he can overpower the Ukrainians and get the country. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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