Steve Bruce

[Dr_Pangloss]

4 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

 

No, I can see the idea of expecting promotion was never raised. 

Ha fair enough, I'm not arguing that though. 

[Dave J]

9 hours ago, briny_ear said:

Useful handbrake, that: got him four promotions from the Championship. 

In how many years of management ? I don't think this is all that much of a glowing endorsement of his attributes as a top football manager in my opinion for what it's worth 

[Johnnyp]

14 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

I think anyone who expected promotion last season after the dismal start made by di Matteo needs a reality check.

Still playing the "di matteo left us with too much to do card " We were closer to the play off positions in terms of points when di matteo left than when the season finished. Nope, stevie has to start delivering and sharpish. 

[briny_ear]

1 hour ago, Johnnyp said:

Still playing the "di matteo left us with too much to do card " We were closer to the play off positions in terms of points when di matteo left than when the season finished. Nope, stevie has to start delivering and sharpish. 

If I were still handing out Old Briny's "dodgy statistics" awards, this one, which has been repeated over and over again, would have won the Oscar. (I've given up handing out awards because the bogus and facile statistics regularly thrown around in this thread alone would have made it a full time job.)

The hint is in the phrase "play off positions". So to qualify you need to end up at least in 6th position. 

When di Matteo left, we were in 19th position, 13 places below the playoffs. By the end of the season we were 13th position, so 7 places below the playoffs. So by the end of the season we were nearer the playoff positions than when di Matteo was ejected.

This is a very simple fact that can't be altered by playing around with other stats.

if you have read all I have posted this morning you will see that I am not simply saying that di Matteo left us with too much to do. Rather 5 years of abysmal board policy and management, systematic turbulence in and downgrading of the squad, and a dismal start to the season by di Matteo on top of that left us more or less stranded. Having two managers and bringing in 14 new players while shipping out 17 probably didn't help towards a strong and stable campaign either.

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by briny_ear

[DaveAV1]

The problem with using Bruce's promotion from the Championship record is that he has spent more time down here than most. I don't know the exact number of seasons, but it's quite a few. He has achieved automatic promotion twice, which surely is our aim given our stature and financial muscle. Eddie Howe has only been promoted once, Tony Pulis once, even Rafa Benitez only once, Fergie didn't manage it at all!

To finish in the top two, the rule of thumb is generally two points per game more or less. If we don't set out our stall to dominate games in midfield and have a goal threat from more than just one striker on form, then that target isn't likely to be reached.

Last season teams came to Villa Park and showed us respect, particularly in the first half. Once they realised there was no attacking intent to be scared of they came out at us more. We were often on the back foot in the second half. They will have learnt from last season and come with more confidence when they face us. Does anyone think we will have learnt and approach the games differently? If we don't we can expect mid table again and an exceptionally poor return on our investment, both from the Doc's point of view and ours. 

[AshVilla]

Warnock has got teams promoted from the championship more than once and he managed to finish above us with Cardiff maybe we should have got him instead

[DCJonah]

A blog on the my old man site made some good points. 

I liked this part in particular. 

"

Steve Bruce’s experience has long been cited as his main attribute as a manager, which it undoubtedly is. No manager has been promoted from the Championship more times than Steve Bruce. It is a statistic that younger managers cannot compete with, largely because most younger managers, such as Eddie Howe, who took Bournemouth up from League Two, haven’t managed in the Championship for four, five or even ten years.

Bruce’s unique accomplishment includes an obvious cause for concern however. Double promotions with Hull and Birmingham would not have been possible had those clubs not been quickly relegated again.

In respect of the Premier League, Hull and Birmingham City have shown that squads built by Steve Bruce have difficulty retaining their Premier League status more often than not. And that’s before considering his lack of success in taking any Premier League clubs towards the European places.

Cardiff City boss Neil Warnock, another recognised Championship boss in recent years, became the Bluebirds’ manager in the same week of October 2016 as Bruce did at Villa.

The Bluebirds were second from bottom, four places below Villa, but come the end of the season were a place above Villa. In comparison to Villa’s £75m+ spend this season, Cardiff City spent only around £2.6m. Warnock certainly spectacularly out-performed Bruce considering the resources he had to work with.

If Warnock was punching above his weight to gain a top-half finish with Cardiff, what was Bruce doing with Villa finishing in the bottom half? With 32 games to play, Villa were just five/six points off the play-off spots."

 

Article can be found http://www.myoldmansaid.com/steve-bruce-will-get-aston-villa-promoted-next-season-definitely/

Edited May 21, 2017 by DCJonah

[terrytini]

I'm not at all sure what relevance it is that Warnock did a really good job at Cardiff ?

 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

2 hours ago, DCJonah said:

A blog on the my old man site made some good points. 

I liked this part in particular. 

"

Steve Bruce’s experience has long been cited as his main attribute as a manager, which it undoubtedly is. No manager has been promoted from the Championship more times than Steve Bruce. It is a statistic that younger managers cannot compete with, largely because most younger managers, such as Eddie Howe, who took Bournemouth up from League Two, haven’t managed in the Championship for four, five or even ten years.

Bruce’s unique accomplishment includes an obvious cause for concern however. Double promotions with Hull and Birmingham would not have been possible had those clubs not been quickly relegated again.

In respect of the Premier League, Hull and Birmingham City have shown that squads built by Steve Bruce have difficulty retaining their Premier League status more often than not. And that’s before considering his lack of success in taking any Premier League clubs towards the European places.

Cardiff City boss Neil Warnock, another recognised Championship boss in recent years, became the Bluebirds’ manager in the same week of October 2016 as Bruce did at Villa.

The Bluebirds were second from bottom, four places below Villa, but come the end of the season were a place above Villa. In comparison to Villa’s £75m+ spend this season, Cardiff City spent only around £2.6m. Warnock certainly spectacularly out-performed Bruce considering the resources he had to work with.

If Warnock was punching above his weight to gain a top-half finish with Cardiff, what was Bruce doing with Villa finishing in the bottom half? With 32 games to play, Villa were just five/six points off the play-off spots."

Great point.

[TRO]

21 hours ago, DaveAV1 said:

And these factors have nothing to do with the manager?

I am not saying it has nothing to do with him......I'm saying he can't play for them.

Gary Nevile recently said " when we lost we never blamed the manager, we blamed ourselves"

Managers have a responsibility Dave of course they have, but they can only do so much, otherwise no one would be searching for quality.....and that every player can be coaached in to what we want them to be and we both no that is "pie in the sky"

I am not trying to give managers a " get of of jail free card".....but in my mind they get blamed for too much and that the players have to take responsibility too.

[TRO]

20 hours ago, terrytini said:

Not for me - it's the Championship, not the Champions League, IMO Bruce has already overdone it on the need for a holding Midfielder - fine, as Jedi is good at it use him for it when fit, but let's not go searching for another one. 

We need creativity, and goals- woefully short on both last year. 

I kind of agree with that.

I am not writing this with conviction, but it concerns me that we have to rely on Jed as much as we do......it seems unless he is playing the back four go jittery.

I agree with the notion the setup up is dragging us back too deep, but "necessity is the mother of invention"......The offensive players must show more composure .

[terrytini]

Bit of both for me TRO - yes those up top need to do better but the Manager could ( I think will ) tweak his tactics to get more support - and closer- to help them do so. He is learning too ( I hope) and maybe sees he has created some of these issues by focussing backwards instead of forwards ( pitch wise) . 

Lansbury and Hourihane were used more constructively in this regard in the final game.

They can relieve pressure on the defence by helping the attack.

[briny_ear]

2 hours ago, terrytini said:

I'm not at all sure what relevance it is that Warnock did a really good job at Cardiff ?

 

Maybe he's one of these "progressive" managers we hear so much about? 

[Guest av1]

4 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

Maybe he's one of these "progressive" managers we hear so much about? 

Progressive, no. But he did manage to get Cardiff playing better football and finishing higher up the table (albeit on goal difference), with a vastly inferior squad of players and a much smaller budget. 

I personally don't see the issue with comparison when accessing how someone is performing.

 

[briny_ear]

6 minutes ago, av1 said:

I personally don't see the issue with comparison when accessing how someone is performing.

 

Apert from the obvious issue of what is the point of the comparison? He wasn't managing Aston Villa so we don't know how he would have performed with us.

Edited May 21, 2017 by briny_ear

[Guest av1]

30 minutes ago, terrytini said:

Bit of both for me TRO - yes those up top need to do better but the Manager could ( I think will ) tweak his tactics to get more support - and closer- to help them do so. He is learning too ( I hope) and maybe sees he has created some of these issues by focussing backwards instead of forwards ( pitch wise) . 

Lansbury and Hourihane were used more constructively in this regard in the final game.

They can relieve pressure on the defence by helping the attack.

I really do hope youre right Terry, but I'm really not sure the Brighton game offers any clues to how Bruce will set up next season. 

He had been ultra defensive in every game before that, so allowing them to express themselves a little more in what was a meaningless game was probably more to do with circumstances than any shift in direction. 

I hope I'm wrong on thst of course.

[Jareth]

5 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

...and we lost 38% of our matches under Bruce, which is pretty awful. But yeah, overall, doing a cracking job based on last season  

Ah well, it's the old 50/50 argument that fuels these forums. I say tomatoes, you say Bruce OUT. 

[sne]

5 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Ah well, it's the old 50/50 argument that fuels these forums. I say tomatoes, you say Bruce OUT. 

Surely when speaking about Bruce it's potatoes? 

[Guest av1]

4 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

Apert from the obvious issue of what is the point of the comparison? He wasn't managing Aston Villa so we don't know how he would have performed with us.

The point is that there are managers in this league playing better football and accruing more points with far less money and inferior squads. 

I keep hearing this argument of  'but we've been on a downward spiral for years, it was always going to take time', but that doesn't seem to bothered Newcastle who have been shit for years. Gary Monk has gone into a madhouse and only just missed out on the playoffs. 

Throw in the fact that our style of play makes Tony Pulis look progressive, in spite of having a budget every one of our competitors (Newcastle aside) can only dream of, and Bruce has been crap however you look at it. 

He has had 38 games and shown absolutely nothing that fills me with confidence for next season. 

[DCJonah]

30 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

Apert from the obvious issue of what is the point of the comparison? He wasn't managing Aston Villa so we don't know how he would have performed with us.

No we don't. We do know that he had far less money and started with a team further down the table. We also know he's not a very good manager. So the fact he finished above Bruce gives some comparison to the argument that Bruce has done a poor job. 

That is unless you're someone who buys into the myth of the exaggerated level of difficulty the task he inherited was.