Steve Bruce

[Taxahunter]

On 6/10/2017 at 15:30, villianusa said:

Since we were relegated, 39 players have been sold or loaned out and 35 players have been purchased or loaned. This comes on the back of the clubs worst season in the Premier League, on the back of 6 seasons of dross caused by years of mismanagement, and poor managers. RMD came in an try to buy his way to success, and due to the teams poor run, he was fired (we'll never know if he could have turned it around). Bruce took over a club in turmoil, old players who had given up hope and new players who were trying to find their footing at the club.

Bruce got the team on some sort of run before Christmas, and I believe he made the mistake of trying to bring in players to fill in for Codger while he was away. It didn't work and too many changes were made and we went into another slump. The remainder of the season showed him what players would take the club forward and those that wouldn't. He made a couple of poor purchases, but for the best part his have turned out well.

Over the summer, he has worked well to fix the issues that we all saw towards the end of the season. 14 players in, 14 players out over the summer has caused a period of settling that has made performances inconsistent and not much fun to watch. The club and the players are finally starting to come out of the years of depression, but it still going to take some time for this to happen. With the amount of turnover of players, and trying to change the mindset of the club has taken longer than some have wanted. Even though I have supported Bruce for the best part I started to waiver before the Reading game. 

It can take teams 2-3 months to finally understand a new pattern of play and a new system, and with so many players in and out, this can take longer. The team has had good September, but he needs to push on against tougher teams after the international break. In this league, some wins will be pretty and other will be a mindboring 1-0 win with a lucky goal of someone's shin. I'm okay with that, as long as we keep moving up the league. Personally,  during the poor games, you have to blame the players on the field for this, and the managers if he doesn't make the changes to fix it during the game and subsequent games.

I believe over time, the team will continue to become more entertaining and be successful in promotion to the Premier League. All of us want us to be there, the only difference is some want Bruce and other's don't.  If we are outside the playoffs going into the new year, then for me bigger questions need to be asked.

I understand where you are coming from, but from the club is coming from, it takes more than just having good players on paper.

Some of the things I agree with and some I dont. It's proffesional football players we are talking about. They havent been doing anything else than play football their entire life. I hope for the sake of our club, that changing from one system to another wont take 2-3 months, how should we be able to cope with systems changes during the games or setup according to how other teams are playing. If the cant manage that, we must have some pretty unintelligent players n our squad. I have been playing football for my entire life on a semiproffesional level - now its only "Old Boys", but I can play pretty much all positions in midfield and attack in pretty much any systems. So I dont get this "they have to adapt to another system/way to play"-excuse. Its their life, if they dont know it by know, they probalby never will.

 

[sne]

4 minutes ago, Taxahunter said:

Some of the things I agree with and some I dont. It's proffesional football players we are talking about. They havent been doing anything else than play football their entire life. I hope for the sake of our club, that changing from one system to another wont take 2-3 months, how should we be able to cope with systems changes during the games or setup according to how other teams are playing. If the cant manage that, we must have some pretty unintelligent players n our squad. I have been playing football for my entire life on a semiproffesional level - now its only "Old Boys", but I can play pretty much all positions in midfield and attack in pretty much any systems. So I dont get this "they have to adapt to another system/way to play"-excuse. Its their life, if they dont know it by know, they probalby never will.

 

Very much down to the manager, coaches, players, system and how well the players are suited to the system.

Conte and his coaching team managed to get an almost instant impact last season when they changed to the 3-4-3 after a few losses early in the season.

Of course he is a superior manager with superior players, but there is no set time of how long it will take to implement a new system.

There are however a lot of parameters.

[villianusa]

2 hours ago, Taxahunter said:

Some of the things I agree with and some I dont. It's proffesional football players we are talking about. They havent been doing anything else than play football their entire life. I hope for the sake of our club, that changing from one system to another wont take 2-3 months, how should we be able to cope with systems changes during the games or setup according to how other teams are playing. If the cant manage that, we must have some pretty unintelligent players n our squad. I have been playing football for my entire life on a semiproffesional level - now its only "Old Boys", but I can play pretty much all positions in midfield and attack in pretty much any systems. So I dont get this "they have to adapt to another system/way to play"-excuse. Its their life, if they dont know it by know, they probalby never will.

 

I'm not trying to dismiss you point of view as in some cases it is true. I have also played at the level you have for over 20 years, and have also coached a a fairly high level during and after that also. Going through my UEFA licences, I have worked with some present Premier League managers and coaches. Talking to pro players, I was amazed how some find even the slightest change to tactics so difficult to get to grips with.  i'm not saying that all players aren't the brightest, but quite a few that I have experienced could have done with studying a bit more at school.

These are players who probably never went onto get a degree, and were set financially by their early 20's and on their way by the time most of us think of higher education.

You can have most of the team get the system get the system very quickly, but a few struggle, and the team will also. Sadly, it seems teams struggle to get 11 good players, who have the book smarts too.

Coaches with may more years of coaching experience than me, and at an even higher level, are the ones who express the time it takes the majority of teams to change systems. 

[osmark86]

53 minutes ago, villianusa said:

I'm not trying to dismiss you point of view as in some cases it is true. I have also played at the level you have for over 20 years, and have also coached a a fairly high level during and after that also. Going through my UEFA licences, I have worked with some present Premier League managers and coaches. Talking to pro players, I was amazed how some find even the slightest change to tactics so difficult to get to grips with.  i'm not saying that all players aren't the brightest, but quite a few that I have experienced could have done with studying a bit more at school.

These are players who probably never went onto get a degree, and were set financially by their early 20's and on their way by the time most of us think of higher education.

You can have most of the team get the system get the system very quickly, but a few struggle, and the team will also. Sadly, it seems teams struggle to get 11 good players, who have the book smarts too.

Coaches with may more years of coaching experience than me, and at an even higher level, are the ones who express the time it takes the majority of teams to change systems. 

out of curiosity, what teams/coaches have you worked with?

[AshVilla]

We have pretty much been flat track bullies against lesser opposition in our previous 4 games beating teams we were been expected to beat.

The proof of the pudding will be these fixtures coming up, if we want to go up as one of the top two we need to be taking points off these teams. Otherwise it will probably be the playoff lottery which will be a massive disappointment should we fail to win the jackpot.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by AshVilla

[lexicon]

So I've been avoiding this thread like the plague for the past week or so - same old circular arguments where nobody concedes anything or changes their mind?

[Dave J]

9 hours ago, sne said:

Yep, win % is rather good.

Shame about the 34% loss rate.

Is there a who plays the most dross football percentage rate - I'm sure he figure highly in this?

[Dave J]

1 hour ago, lexicon said:

So I've been avoiding this thread like the plague for the past week or so - same old circular arguments where nobody concedes anything or changes their mind?

I guess that's pretty much how it rolls on football forums ? Despite a decent mini run - I would be bothered not one jot if Bruce left this evening - I still don't think he is the right man to change the long term fortunes of the club and therefore I have to stick with my long term point of view - yes I could be forced to eat humble pie as this year unfolds - but even if we do gain promotion I  would say that he is still not the man to keep us up and then progress the club to where most of believe we should be.

[Grasshopper]

Just watched the AV v Forest game again.

We really are a shit footballing side with very talented players. 

What on earth is Bruce trying to do?

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

12 minutes ago, Grasshopper said:

Just watched the AV v Forest game again.

We really are a shit footballing side with very talented players. 

What on earth is Bruce trying to do?

Exactly what I said.

We both know what that means. lol

I'll just soak up the positivity for now though.

[macandally]

On 05/10/2017 at 14:36, bannedfromHandV said:

Warnock didn't inherit a club/team that had just dropped out of the Premier League in a truly embarrassing fashion, he also didn't inherit a club that had hired a new Manager just three months prior, he also didn't inherit a club that had just been taken over 4 months previously by new owners who installed new staff.

But sure, it's exactly the same right?

Nor did he have £30m to spend!  Sorry, but some people just find excuses for everything.  Not buying it.

[Grasshopper]

On 05/10/2017 at 15:36, bannedfromHandV said:

Warnock didn't inherit a club/team that had just dropped out of the Premier League in a truly embarrassing fashion, he also didn't inherit a club that had hired a new Manager just three months prior, he also didn't inherit a club that had just been taken over 4 months previously by new owners who installed new staff.

But sure, it's exactly the same right?

It‘s almost like wanting all the old shit players like

                        Guzan

Hutton Richards Lescott Cissokho

Bacuna Westwood Gardner Richardson

             Gaby Gestede

So that Bruce has an excuse for playing shyte hoofball.

WHO WOULDNT want a complete turnover of players?

Someone who needs an excuse for playing Shyte Hoofball?

[Dave J]

On 05/10/2017 at 14:36, bannedfromHandV said:

Warnock didn't inherit a club/team that had just dropped out of the Premier League in a truly embarrassing fashion, he also didn't inherit a club that had hired a new Manager just three months prior, he also didn't inherit a club that had just been taken over 4 months previously by new owners who installed new staff.

But sure, it's exactly the same right?

That's very convenient of you - Warnock inherited a club stuck in neutral,  with limited resources, budget etc,  a passionate but limited fan base that could generate extra funding - you see where this is heading? And yet within weeks Warnock got this lot cooking - and looking upwards, yet Bruce with his untold millions and 4 promotions ( I keep hearing ) took a year to look anything like a team that might just be able to sneak the play offs - it's ridiculous to compere Bruce to Warnocks achievemts in the same period and I don't like Warnock 

[Guest av1]

6 minutes ago, Dave J said:

That's very convenient of you - Warnock inherited a club stuck in neutral,  with limited resources, budget etc,  a passionate but limited fan base that could generate extra funding - you see where this is heading? And yet within weeks Warnock got this lot cooking - and looking upwards, yet Bruce with his untold millions and 4 promotions ( I keep hearing ) took a year to look anything like a team that might just be able to sneak the play offs - it's ridiculous to compere Bruce to Warnocks achievemts in the same period and I don't like Warnock 

Just to add to this Dave. Warnock has spent £3m since taking over at Cardiff. 

[briny_ear]

Cardiff weren't suffering from 6 years of tragic neglect and decline with a massive squad of overpaid players, the cumulative consequence of years of aimless, strategy-less purchasing.

So there is nothing more pointless and irrelevant than comparing Villa to Cardiff or the performance of their respective managers.

 

[Dave J]

4 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

Cardiff weren't suffering from 6 years of tragic neglect and decline with a massive squad of overpaid players, the cumulative consequence of years of aimless, strategy-less purchasing.

So there is nothing more pointless and irrelevant than comparing Villa to Cardiff or the performance of their respective managers.

 

With the very greatest of respect that's a nonsense in my view.

both clubs have under performed in recent seasons - both clubs get taken over at roughly the same time by experienced managers - one gets a pot of gold whilst the a pittance and guess what happens next- yeah I suppose it is pointless  comparing it'll only make me full of envy 

[markavfc40]

12 minutes ago, Dave J said:

one gets a pot of gold whilst the a pittance and guess what happens next- yeah I suppose it is pointless  comparing it'll only make me full of envy 

Pot of gold is a bit of an exaggeration isn't it? Bree  Hourihane, Lansbury came in for pretty much what we sold Gestede for,  we swapped Ayew for Taylor and a few mill our way. Westood went for 5 mill. Hogan was the biggie and came in for anywhere between 9 and 12 mill depending on what reports you believe. In January we spent no more than 5 mill net. 

Due to the business over the summer Bruce is well up in terms of a net transfer balance.

Having said that the bottom line is he has assembled a very good squad, and fair play to him for that, but he hasn't got the best out of them until the last 4 or 5 weeks. Hopefully that will continue.

[Guest av1]

10 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Pot of gold is a bit of an exaggeration isn't it? Bree  Hourihane, Lansbury came in for pretty much what we sold Gestede for,  we swapped Ayew for Taylor and a few mill our way. Westood went for 5 mill. Hogan was the biggie and came in for anywhere between 9 and 12 mill depending on what reports you believe. In January we spent no more than 5 mill net. 

 

If we are talking transfer fees alone though mate you may aswell though John Terry in there aswell. 

The fees were down to contract situations, there is not another club in the championship that would pay these guys the sort of wages they earn here. And as such no other championship would have been able to buy them, however small the initial transfer fee. 

However you look at it, Bruce has had far more resources than any other manager in the league. 

[TRO]

9 hours ago, villianusa said:

I'm not trying to dismiss you point of view as in some cases it is true. I have also played at the level you have for over 20 years, and have also coached a a fairly high level during and after that also. Going through my UEFA licences, I have worked with some present Premier League managers and coaches. Talking to pro players, I was amazed how some find even the slightest change to tactics so difficult to get to grips with.  i'm not saying that all players aren't the brightest, but quite a few that I have experienced could have done with studying a bit more at school.

These are players who probably never went onto get a degree, and were set financially by their early 20's and on their way by the time most of us think of higher education.

You can have most of the team get the system get the system very quickly, but a few struggle, and the team will also. Sadly, it seems teams struggle to get 11 good players, who have the book smarts too.

Coaches with may more years of coaching experience than me, and at an even higher level, are the ones who express the time it takes the majority of teams to change systems. 

Its very difficult to put fine date lines on how long these things take.....i accept your point too, some players pick up things much quicker than others and to remind ourselves its the team we are trying to get right.

In general, i think there are so many factors and variables to get right and teams are in different states of flux to be able to make credible comparisons.

 

[TRO]

2 hours ago, macandally said:

Nor did he have £30m to spend!  Sorry, but some people just find excuses for everything.  Not buying it.

Stones....glasshouses, anybody.