Rodders Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, snowychap said: A vote for the withdrawal agreement, even if accompanied by a referendum on the withdrawal agreement, will not 'end' this. After that, the serious stuff begins. Brexit does not end with the Withdrawal Agreement being ratified. Oh, I know there's much more to go, but I just want to get to the next stage of this process. It's interminable at the moment, and the one thing I don't want is some no deal, and some populist brexiteer as PM ( no doubt too late for that ) making it even worse. Whatever the legion flaws in this deal, it is preferable to the alternative. I know that's a shit way to decide something, but I see no other exit at present from this. At least, this theoretically has the carrot of the 2nd referendum, maybe I am naive, but I'm willing to take that change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted May 21, 2019 Moderator Share Posted May 21, 2019 28 minutes ago, Rodders said: **** it, just vote for it. get the referendum voted on and end this. It’s not vote for my deal and have a referendum. It’s vote for my deal and have a vote on having a referendum on her terms eff that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Rodders said: Oh, I know there's much more to go, but I just want to get to the next stage of this process. It's interminable at the moment, and the one thing I don't want is some no deal, and some populist brexiteer as PM ( no doubt too late for that ) making it even worse. Whatever the legion flaws in this deal, it is preferable to the alternative. I know that's a shit way to decide something, but I see no other exit at present from this. At least, this theoretically has the carrot of the 2nd referendum, maybe I am naive, but I'm willing to take that change. But the call for 'just get this bit done' will then bleed in to 'just get this bit done' for the next stage of the process and it's in that stage that the things like the issues surrounding Northern Ireland will really start to take hold. It's not just a shit way to decide something, Rodders, it's no way to actually decide something because going through with this WA will open the floodgates to all manner of shit afterwards. If you think this is bad or interminable then you don't want Act 2 to even start. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted May 21, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted May 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, snowychap said: How can anyone take her seriously when she proposes to commit a future government (of which she is unlikely to be part) or even a future Parliament (which can't be bound by a previous Parliament) to specific processes and procedures when she is appearing, by introducing the WAB having failed with the meaningful votes, to effectively bypass specific procedures already set out in statute, to which she and her government agreed to be bound? It's all this 'in law' nonsense. Hush. It's all 'legally binding'. Now give her what she wants and shut up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 14 minutes ago, snowychap said: But the call for 'just get this bit done' will then bleed in to 'just get this bit done' for the next stage of the process and it's in that stage that the things like the issues surrounding Northern Ireland will really start to take hold. It's not just a shit way to decide something, Rodders, it's no way to actually decide something because going through with this WA will open the floodgates to all manner of shit afterwards. If you think this is bad or interminable then you don't want Act 2 to even start. In truth, I do acknowledge and accept all that, but this incompetence and inability to make any form of headway is wearing thin. Surely something has to give eventually? What do we do when we get to October and still nothing has happened? I think Brexit will be shit, but shouting cancel it every day isn't very helpful. No politician seems to want any actual responsibility for expressing an opinion on it, whilst simultaneously wishing to ride the coat-tails of their publics opinion by playing the under siege or protest card. I know that statement is nothing new, but well it must end / move on / find some plausible solution eventually, I'm really rather bored. It would be far easier to be patient if we weren't slowing entering this grand cul-de-sac of incompetence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 40 minutes ago, Rodders said: it must end / move on / find some plausible solution eventually It's quite possible that it won't until someone from beyond these shores decides that it must end. I have every sympathy for the feelings expressed above but as said before, it's not going to get any better any time soon and it could and possibly will get a whole load worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted May 21, 2019 Author Moderator Share Posted May 21, 2019 22 hours ago, peterms said: This Is Not An Exit Is this it? Is this finally it? For months, it's been untenable. For months, something had to give, and yet nothing did. There are some highly debatable points in that article, but the first line is one to start with. Something did give. 3 somethings gave. First, the March deadline disappeared, as it was always (IMO) going to give. Secondly, May gave. She’s shortly out of a job. Third, the June deadline gave. More things will give in the next 4 months, too. No matter which direction anyone looks at, or prefers, things cannot not give. Their likelihood of occurring varies, but parliament ending (GE), EU pulling up the drawbridge, or at least being seen as about to, and then a panicked “er, wait a minute, go on then, we’ll take the May deal” plea being made by the UK, a second referendum scenario getting voted through by parliament is less unlikely by the minute, almost. There’s loads of ways ahead. The point being that an article saying, in essence “nothing, no way out of it” is fundamentally wrong. There will be a deal brexit, no brexit, or (just for the sake of including minute probabilities) no deal brexit. Strategically if Corbyn gets off the fence, picks remain, there will be a GE and he will win it. That’s the way out for Labour. If he picks leave, there will be a Tory deal brexit that he’ll have enabled . He wanted that, so he could point at the mess and say “ now vote for me” but that wishful thinking, that let the tories harm the UK for personal advantage opportunism has been voided, if it were ever remotely valid anyway. (all in my opinion, no I’m not saying it’s fact...etc.) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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peterms Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 1 hour ago, blandy said: Something did give. 3 somethings gave. First, the March deadline disappeared, as it was always (IMO) going to give. Secondly, May gave. She’s shortly out of a job. Third, the June deadline gave. More things will give in the next 4 months, too. Those three things happened, but it feels more like treading water than anything significant happening. In fact, reports of the reaction to May's "bold offer" make it sound like things are going backwards, with her losing supporters who were becoming reconciled to her way forward. Perhaps the reaction to Thursday's election will shake things up a bit, but we still seem to be in deadlock, to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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ml1dch Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Davkaus Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 ...Who are NAT? So by my reckoning, that's 36+9+3+2, or 50% for remain. After the last 3 years of this shitshow? **** me. 53%, depending on who the hell NAT are. That's not as overwhelmingly good news as I might have hoped for. 3 years, and we're still as divided as ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrusr Posted May 21, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted May 21, 2019 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Davkaus said: ...Who are NAT? So by my reckoning, that's 36+9+3+2, or 50% for remain. After the last 3 years of this shitshow? **** me. 53%, depending on who the hell NAT are. That's not as overwhelmingly good news as I might have hoped for. 3 years, and we're still as divided as ever. NAT= National parties (SNP & Plaid Cymru) so yeah you can count them for remain. Your maths is slightly out too. It’s 54% for remain including the nationals. Still a majority for remain though, not that it will be sold as such. Poll just shows how much Labour could exploit this but fail to do so. It also shows how cheap slogans and easy answers can give you massive amounts of votes. Edited May 21, 2019 by cyrusr 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted May 21, 2019 Share Posted May 21, 2019 17 minutes ago, cyrusr said: Your maths is slightly out too. It’s 54% for remain including the nationals. Yeah I misread the NAT number when I glanced back up. Thanks for the clarification though,. I've never seen the SNP and Plaid Cymru bundled up like that before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Quote This is everything I discovered about >all< of The Brexit Party MEP candidates. From gay conversion therapy advocates to supporters of paedophilia legalisation, from climate change deniers to rampant tax avoiders, from NHS abolitionists to besties of neo-Nazis, from fracking supporters to unabashed profiteers of chaos… I have a hunch that 2–10% of my friends, family and colleagues are going to go to their local voting booths on Thursday and scrawl a tick next to The Brexit Party. Firstly, I still love you guys. Despite, um, everything. Secondly, I wrote this handy list for you. It’s about your favourite party’s candidates. Now, I was kinda worried you might be voting for The Brexit Party for one reason (especially as they forgot to publish more than one policy). And that you might reconcile yourself with the motley crew as a wanky means to an end. Some of you might not have the time to investigate what kind of people you’re voting for, and what views they have, something made harder by their often suspicious levels of secrecy and stonewalling. Put simply, you might not know who you are voting to give power and influence to. Which is why I took the time to do the reading for you. Sam Holloway Be clear who you're voting for Brexit, and wonder why there's bugger all policies? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted May 22, 2019 Share Posted May 22, 2019 Very strange viewing in the commons. Half the tory party not bothered to show up including the chief whip and half the front bench... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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