The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[mjmooney]

Maybe one for the BBC thread, but I've just been listening to a R4 feature where they went to (heavily pro-remain) Edinburgh and managed to find two pro-brexit voxpops saying how impressed they were with Farage. They then interviewed a Boris-supporting Tory spokesman, who said there was clearly massive support for the Brexit Party - "as proven there by your interviews". Shocking. 

[snowychap]

 

[chrisp65]

Can't wait until May 24th when Labour tell us what side they were on.

Could make it close.

[bickster]

45 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Maybe one for the BBC thread, but I've just been listening to a R4 feature where they went to (heavily pro-remain) Edinburgh and managed to find two pro-brexit voxpops saying how impressed they were with Farage. They then interviewed a Boris-supporting Tory spokesman, who said there was clearly massive support for the Brexit Party - "as proven there by your interviews". Shocking. 

It’s not even unusual, this has been happening since the referendum was announced 

[Davkaus]

29 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Can't wait until May 24th when Labour tell us what side they were on.

Could make it close.

Look, the policy of the Labour Party is incredibly straightforward, as set out at the most recent Labour Party conference, and voted for by members. This is the agreed policy, as being implemented by Labour's leadership. I'll summarise it for you, at a level all of you can understand. Let me be clear, the policy is, wait, look over there. What kind of bird is that?

[chrisp65]

It will be interesting to see if Change UK survives far beyond the Euro elections.

It's looking increasingly mis timed and lacking a demographic that isn't already covered by an organised party.

I guess a strategy for them might be to wait and see if one of the old LAB / CON double act does fracture, and try to appeal to that demographic. But that would be a party waiting to find a cause to latch on to. Which is a bit reversy percy.

Not knowing what Labour genuinely intend to do is really annoying. That's either 55 / 45 for remain, or 60 / 40 for leave. With Labour currently saying 'it's not about Brexit, it's about local issues'.

But, on the presumption voters from both sides will vote Labour not really knowing why, it does show it's still incredibly close either way.

Such a powerfully divisive issue. Years of it and all because David Trotter Cameron wanted to protect the tory vote but then couldn't quite be arsed to campaign properly. Well done sir, well done.

 

[chrisp65]

Just now, Davkaus said:

Look, the policy of the Labour Party is incredibly straightforward, as set out at the most recent Labour Party conference, and voted for by members. This is the agreed policy, as being implemented by Labour's leadership. I'll summarise it for you, at a level all of you can understand. Let me be clear, the policy is, wait, look over there. What kind of bird is that?

'Let me be clear'

'I have been very clear on this'

Two trigger phrases that make me think, here we go, another recipe for fudge.

I think in the future, history text books for this sorry section of our history will have the chapter heading 'Let Me Be Clear'. 

It's the modern equivalent of pointing but not pointing, that thumb thing they're taught to do.

[HanoiVillan]

6 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

It will be interesting to see if Change UK survives far beyond the Euro elections.

It's looking increasingly mis timed and lacking a demographic that isn't already covered by an organised party.

I guess a strategy for them might be to wait and see if one of the old LAB / CON double act does fracture, and try to appeal to that demographic. But that would be a party waiting to find a cause to latch on to. Which is a bit reversy percy.

Change UK would right now be polling above the Greens, and quite probably above the Lib Dems and Labour as well, if they had called themselves 'The Remain Party' or 'The Revoke Party' and had a single issue pledge to revoke Article 50. Instead, they chose to offer exactly the same Brexit policy as the Lib Dems and the Greens, but without any other policies or purpose to their existence except as a vehicle for their own egos. Sooner or later, they will have to fold into the Lib Dems or they will cease to exist. 

6 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Not knowing what Labour genuinely intend to do is really annoying. That's either 55 / 45 for remain, or 60 / 40 for leave. With Labour currently saying 'it's not about Brexit, it's about local issues'.

But, on the presumption voters from both sides will vote Labour not really knowing why, it does show it's still incredibly close either way.

I can't help but note that you weren't in any doubt about where Labour stood a week ago. 

[chrisp65]

7 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

I can't help but note that you weren't in any doubt about where Labour stood a week ago. 

Well, I know what their website says. It says Leave.

But then Corbyn went on the Marr programme this morning and said stuff different to what was agreed at NEC, contradicting himself mid answer, that there may or may not be the option of a vote for an option of a possible referendum which he wouldn't say whether he would support, stating that Labour were both leave and remain and the problem was really with the media obsessed with trying to define everything by leave or remain.

He was very clear on that.

.

[HanoiVillan]

2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Well, I know what their website says. It says Leave.

But then Corbyn went on the Marr programme this morning and said stuff different to what was agreed at NEC, contradicting himself mid answer, that there may or may not be the option of a vote for an option of a possible referendum which he wouldn't say whether he would support, stating that Labour were both leave and remain and the problem was really with the media obsessed with trying to define everything by leave or remain.

He was very clear on that.

.

I haven't seen Marr; I would rather stick pins in my eyes. I have seen on social media that Corbyn's performance received some pretty poor reviews, which is hardly surprising since he clearly hates talking about Brexit. 

However, if the big revelation is the news that Labour will support a second referendum in particular circumstances (that we seem to be heading towards), that should not be a surprise since a] it's party policy and b] Labour MP's were whipped to back one in Parliament a month or so ago. 

I would suppose the question of 'what Labour would support' in a second referendum very sensibly depends on what the actual question is. 

[chrisp65]

13 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

I would suppose the question of 'what Labour would support' in a second referendum very sensibly depends on what the actual question is. 

I can help with the question. It's leave or remain.

I know I'm coming over here as a tube. But he is really really annoying the hell out of me. Right now is not the time for clever political tightrope walking.It's not the time for wordplay. There is no point right now in claiming to be a little bit pregnant. He;s taken the tory policy of brexit means brexit and managed to make it even worse. Brexit may or may not mean brexit at a point in time yet to be defined depending on circumstances at that point. 

If they want to remain, just **** say it. If the answer is we want to leave, just say it, then there is a discussion to be had on what sort of leave. But he's fudging the very first stage to keep his vote up. When it's that very politicking that actually loses votes. It's lost mine. I was a Labour voter regardless of who or what they stuck the rosette on. I couldn't imagine voting anything but Labour, I was a union rep..

I engage with a good few Labour people, they've gone in to hiding because they don't know how to explain the party line. Their grassroots door to door support don't know what the **** is going on.

Successive Labour leaders have opened my eyes somewhat to the fact the purpose of the Labour Party is to continue the Labour Party. So I'm utterly disillusioned by them to the point I've moved gradually over a few years from strong support, to best of a bad bunch, to don't say anything, to where I'm now at, taking the piss out of their piss poor performances nationally and locally. 

His waffle is losing the very votes he's trying to trick in to staying. 

Say leave, or say remain. How hard can that be for anyone with an actual opinion. I'd like to think the leader of the biggest political party in europe has an opinion and that party has a clear easy to grasp policy.

 

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

His waffle is losing the very votes he's trying to trick in to staying. 

 

Zackly. "if this that or the other, then after those things I support the option of a people's vote". Not ""if this that or the other, then after those things I support a people's vote". He supports an option (a choice whether to or not). The bloke is an absolute useless deceptive word removed (as he's always been).

[ml1dch]

42 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Say leave, or say remain. How hard can that be for anyone with an actual opinion. I'd like to think the leader of the biggest political party in europe has an opinion and that party has a clear easy to grasp policy.

Surely the easiest thing to do is just take it completely at face value. 

Their policy is in their current manifesto. And it's "leave, but keep things as close as possible to how things are now".

So if you don't want to leave, you shouldn't vote for them. And if you want to leave because you don't like the current arrangements then you shouldn't vote for them.

[bickster]

I saw a small part of the Marr interview before withdrawing from the room in order that the missus still had a TV to watch.

Apparently he campaigned the length and breadth of the country visiting obscure fishing villages outside Inverness and many other places that were never going to get him noticed. He neglected to tell us that he went on holidays in the middle of al” that

He came across as the disingenuous pollock that he is

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, ml1dch said:

Surely the easiest thing to do is just take it completely at face value. 

Their policy is in their current manifesto. And it's "leave, but keep things as close as possible to how things are now".

So if you don't want to leave, you shouldn't vote for them. And if you want to leave because you don't like the current arrangements then you shouldn't vote for them.

So why can't the leader of the party just say that?

When he's saying they want to remain and reform and honour the referendum result and form a customs union but waive our option to have a seat at the table and he'd like the option of a further vote but not the requirement of a referendum, it all feels a bit like I can't trust what they might actually do.

As it happens. That feels to me like the least logical position possible. Leave but don't leave. 

Edited May 19, 2019 by chrisp65
forgot about his 'option' option

[cyrusr]

9 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

It will be interesting to see if Change UK survives far beyond the Euro elections.

It's looking increasingly mis timed and lacking a demographic that isn't already covered by an organised party.

I guess a strategy for them might be to wait and see if one of the old LAB / CON double act does fracture, and try to appeal to that demographic. But that would be a party waiting to find a cause to latch on to. Which is a bit reversy percy.

Not knowing what Labour genuinely intend to do is really annoying. That's either 55 / 45 for remain, or 60 / 40 for leave. With Labour currently saying 'it's not about Brexit, it's about local issues'.

But, on the presumption voters from both sides will vote Labour not really knowing why, it does show it's still incredibly close either way.

Such a powerfully divisive issue. Years of it and all because David Trotter Cameron wanted to protect the tory vote but then couldn't quite be arsed to campaign properly. Well done sir, well done.

 

A couple of things which noticed in that.

I like the small print the graph, saying that “it contains substantial sample in every GB European election region.” So not just wales then, yet is clearly stating its voting intentions in Wales. Given it’s provided for by Beat for Britain, it’s being used to say “we need to worry about the Brexit party” which is true but they don’t need to try and exaggerate the concern. 

Secondly, I think Change UK really are nothing. It @HanoiVillan has said, they are offering nothing above and beyond the Lib Dem’s/Greens with no other policy. Whilst I’ll accept I haven’t really research, apart from a 2nd referendum, what are they saying they will do??? At least the others have a clear plan.

Thirdly, the fact that labour state that they are fighting this on local policies is utterly farcical. Given that their official policy appears to be leave come what may (though it depends who you ask from Labour, it is clear they are divided) and as such these MEPs and elections will be utterly pointless, so what policies are they going to be running in the European Parliament that are going to assist their local policies? 

Of course these elections are solely about brexit. Sadly the only people that seem to get that are Nigel Farage, the Lib Dem’s and Greens.

I think Labour and Tories are going to get completely destroyed in these elections, and it’s their own fault. No clear plan, stupid singleminded inflexible policy, trapping themselves in a corner based on their own assumptions and fundamentally only there to serve their own self interests. Quite frankly, they both deserve it.

When Nigel Farage is being presented as a feasible solution to brexit, the country is utterly f*****. Despite what I said about the poll at the beginning, it’s clear their are polling well because of the stupid bloody mindlessness of a lot of people listening to a simple message. 

I just hope the “remain/2nd referendum” parties combined poll better than him, otherwise it’s going to make things a lot worse.

[chrisp65]

Just now, cyrusr said:

A couple of things which noticed in that.

like the small print the graph, saying that “it contains substantial sample in every GB European election region.”

I'd wondered about the size of survey, they're usually around about a thousand people, this was nearer 10,000 so I had a little look at their website and they have graphs for all the UK. They all have that same disclaimer. So what I'd seen and posted was the bit of interest to me. Turned out there were more of them for each voting area - I didn't know that at the time.

Having now found their website, here's West Mids

 

'if' you take Labour at their website's word, that's 67% leave in the West Mids

Nationally, that would be 

48 Leave MEP's, 24 Remain MEP's

website here

doesn't make happy reading, and it's a source that's pro remain

 

 

 

[cyrusr]

@chrisp65

That is exceptionally bad reading...

[Stevo985]

The share of votes for a party that literally just has the word Brexit in its name is terrifying. 

[snowychap]

On 16/05/2019 at 10:59, Demitri_C said:

So who is everyone voting for in European elections? 

Having been to the local hustings, I shall probably cast my vote for the Greens.

Brexit Party didn't turn up (as they apparently are wont to do with hustings);

Tory and Labour were, well, Tory and Labour - though the young Labour lad put in a good effort considering the poor hand his party has dealt him;

UKIP old boy was largely jumpers for goalposts (or more specifically hitchhiking across the continent in 1970 before we'd joined the EU);

Lib Dem & Greens were much of a muchness save for the Lib Dem candidate trying to airbrush the time in coalition which rather tipped the balance in favour of the Greens.

The Change UK bod was Peter Wilding who was Media and Policy Director of the Conservative Party in the EU from 2005-2008, was probably more interesting to listen to than the rest (mostly because he didn't appear to be toeing any line - guess that's the benefit of hardly being a party), talked quite a bit of sense, made some interesting and pertinent comments and in the end merely pleaded that people don't vote for the Tories, Labour or Farage's lot.