The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[peterms]

1 hour ago, Davkaus said:

How dairy. 

At least he didn't punch his assailant, like "Tommy Robinson".  He turned the udder cheek.

[snowychap]

58 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Of course I can only talk from my and my family perspective. And it took us 2 minutes. Maybe 5. 

I did it when it was still paid for, and got the money back early April. My wife did it the other week and just like me, she got the decision a day or 2 later. The status is ILR.

Yeah, sure you can be denied, but as far as I'm aware it's automated so it's not a human decision. It think you can be rejected when you had problems with the law or had some major debts.  But a lot of my friends did this, and no one got rejected.

The scheme will never close, because it's not designed for EU citizens. It's designed for anyone who lived in the UK for 5 years, many families who moved over from India for example enjoy the same status.

Maybe it's my personal opinion showing here, but if you live in a foreign country and do not make specific arrangements to assimilate yourself in line with local law, you cannot complain about facing consequences (although right now, there are none).

You got ILR from the EU settlement Scheme? The scheme that, according to the government's website, has a deadline for applying:

Quote

The deadline for applying will be 30 June 2021, or 31 December 2020 if the UK leaves the EU without a deal.

The scheme that, if your application is successful, means you'll be given either settled or pre-settled status as per this page:

Quote

After you've applied

You believe that Indian citizens moving to this country will be able to apply, under the EU settlement status scheme for settled status (if they're not a family member of an EU citizen or one of the other exceptions where you may be able to apply)?

58 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Is it unreasonable to expect people who move abroad to take proactive steps to secure their lives over here?

This is expecting people who have already moved abroad, properly exercising rights they already have (as EU Citizens), to apply to retain the rights that they already hold. This is not about people who move in future, after the rights that they currently have cease to be rights that they currently have. That's a completely different ball game.

Edited May 20, 2019 by snowychap

[Chindie]

Farage getting milkshaked has made my day.

Of course the Sun has set about exposing the guy that did it. 

[peterms]

[bickster]

I think the PCSO has ideas above his station tbh

[Mic09]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

You got ILR from the EU settlement Scheme? The scheme that, according to the government's website, has a deadline for applying:

The scheme that, if your application is successful, means you'll be given either settled or pre-settled status as per this page:

You believe that Indian citizens moving to this country will be able to apply, under the EU settlement status scheme for settled status (if they're not a family member of an EU citizen or one of the other exceptions where you may be able to apply)?

This is expecting people who have already moved abroad, properly exercising rights they already have (as EU Citizens), to apply to retain the rights that they already hold. This is not about people who move in future, after the rights that they currently have cease to be rights that they currently have. That's a completely different ball game.

You got me  questioning my own application now haha

Yes, I double checked and ILR = settled status(other for small technicalities, like how many years you can live abroad etc) but very often these are interchangeable. I got ILR from the EU Brexit app thingy, the one they are referring to  in the article.

While I am not sure if the process is the same for ILR application if you are from outside of EU, many families will apply for this status after they lived here for 5 years or more (like in my India example). 

Personally, I think it's a bit shortsighted to expect to enjoy EU rights AFTER we have left the EU. And this application (which took us 5 minutes) guarantees we enjoy the same rights. When he moved to the UK (and he did so 15 years ago, so after Poland entered the EU) he knew he can only move here because of EU. He is not enjoying British law that enables him to stay here. He is enjoying EU law. 

In the article, he says:

Quote

"You should have an automatic right to stay without any application after a certain period of time if you have no criminal record and are part of the community."

I just don't get it. Until you are not a British Citizen, you have no right in saying what should or should not happen. I'm trying to find a good analogy here, but I just feel that when you are invited for tea you don't demand the type of cake you are gonna get. It's just rude.


 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Mic09

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Mic09 said:

Personally, I think it's a bit shortsighted to expect to enjoy EU rights AFTER we have left the EU.

Hmm, on the other side of the coin, I think it's totally outrageous that I lose many rights I currently have by no longer being an EU Citizen. I would jump at the chance f retaining my EU Citizenship

[Mic09]

18 minutes ago, bickster said:

Hmm, on the other side of the coin, I think it's totally outrageous that I lose many rights I currently have by no longer being an EU Citizen. I would jump at the chance f retaining my EU Citizenship

You would jump at a chance to retain your EU rights.

So I guess a simple online application is not too much to ask for?

[bickster]

Just now, Mic09 said:

You would jump at a chance to retain your EU rights.

So I guess a simple online application is not too much to ask for?

To be honest I'd do it but I'd also see it as unnecessary

[Xela]

That milkshake cost £5.25

 

[snowychap]

29 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

You got me  questioning my own application now haha

Yes, I double checked and ILR = settled status(other for small technicalities, like how many years you can live abroad etc) but very often these are interchangeable. I got ILR from the EU Brexit app thingy, the one they are referring to  in the article.

While I am not sure if the process is the same for ILR application if you are from outside of EU, many families will apply for this status after they lived here for 5 years or more (like in my India example). 

Personally, I think it's a bit shortsighted to expect to enjoy EU rights AFTER we have left the EU. And this application (which took us 5 minutes) guarantees we enjoy the same rights. When he moved to the UK (and he did so 15 years ago, so after Poland entered the EU) he knew he can only move here because of EU. He is not enjoying British law that enables him to stay here. He is enjoying EU law.

Well, if you went through the App and received settled status then I imagine you have gone through the right appplication process.

You appear to be getting in to a big muddle, though, when you talk about people from outside the EU applying for some sort of immigration status..

As per the links in a previous post, the Government's website says there are only some cases where non-EU nationals may apply through the EU Settlement scheme.

It also says that the EU Settlement scheme is predominantly (with the exceptions as per above) for EU, EEA or Swiss citizens and that the EU settlement scheme has a deadline. That deadline is either 30th June 2021 or, if the UK leaves the EU without a deal, 31st December 2020.

Quote

I just don't get it. Until you are not a British Citizen, you have no right in saying what should or should not happen. I'm trying to find a good analogy here, but I just feel that when you are invited for tea you don't demand the type of cake you are gonna get. It's just rude.

People who have exercised their rights to come and live, work, set up businesses, make their life & so on haven't been 'invited for tea'.

They have come to the country on the basis that they have the right to... as above.

I wonder why you don't view it as rude, for example, to tell someone that their application for permanent residence is accepted and therefore, presumably, they have the right to permanently reside in a country and then tell them that this permanent right was only ever temporary, that it expires at the end of 2020 and that they've got to appply to keep permanently residing where you have already told them they can permanently reside. I wonder whether some of those people might get the idea that the Indefinite Leave to Remain nature of the Settled Status that is then due to be conferrred on them might not be quite so 'indefinite' or 'settled'.

And then... the Home Office: a department with a track record of deceit, stubbornness, capriciousness and outright incompetence.

 

[snowychap]

2 hours ago, Xann said:

They should get someone to follow him around on the campaign trail playing this over and over again, à la the Sousaphone guy from The Last Leg.

[bickster]

 

 

 

3 minutes ago, snowychap said:

They should get someone to follow him around on the campaign trail playing this over and over again, à la the Sousaphone guy from The Last Leg.

We use the Benny Hill Theme for Fascists in Liverpool. Yaxley-Lennon even got it yesterday in the very road his team turned up to, from a resident of the road, not some protestor from miles away, it was coming out of a residents living room at full pelt

[Xann]

10 minutes ago, snowychap said:

They should get someone to follow him around on the campaign trail playing this over and over again, à la the Sousaphone guy from The Last Leg.

Alberto Frog > Nigel Toad  

[chrisp65]

McDonalds reveal new milkshake dispenser for Brexit rallies.

[snowychap]

 

[Mic09]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

Well, if you went through the App and received settled status then I imagine you have gone through the right appplication process.

You appear to be getting in to a big muddle, though, when you talk about people from outside the EU applying for some sort of immigration status..

As per the links in a previous post, the Government's website says there are only some cases where non-EU nationals may apply through the EU Settlement scheme.

It also says that the EU Settlement scheme is predominantly (with the exceptions as per above) for EU, EEA or Swiss citizens and that the EU settlement scheme has a deadline. That deadline is either 30th June 2021 or, if the UK leaves the EU without a deal, 31st December 2020.

People who have exercised their rights to come and live, work, set up businesses, make their life & so on haven't been 'invited for tea'.

They have come to the country on the basis that they have the right to... as above.

I wonder why you don't view it as rude, for example, to tell someone that their application for permanent residence is accepted and therefore, presumably, they have the right to permanently reside in a country and then tell them that this permanent right was only ever temporary, that it expires at the end of 2020 and that they've got to appply to keep permanently residing where you have already told them they can permanently reside. I wonder whether some of those people might get the idea that the Indefinite Leave to Remain nature of the Settled Status that is then due to be conferrred on them might not be quite so 'indefinite' or 'settled'.

And then... the Home Office: a department with a track record of deceit, stubbornness, capriciousness and outright incompetence.

 

Regardless of deadlines and analogies, I really think the bottom line is simple. The application takes maximum 5 minutes. Everyone knew about ILRs when they first came to the UK. It's free. 

If he values the life in the UK so much, why not do it?

[peterms]

Good piece by Richard Seymour, here.

I expect remainers won't like it.  Leavers will probably have some complaint as well.

Quote

This Is Not An Exit

Is this it? Is this finally it? For months, it's been untenable. For months, something had to give, and yet nothing did. 'Exit' is no longer just a fantasy of the reactionaries. We all want out of this situation. We all have our dreams of escape. Will something finally yield this Thursday? No.

Let's briefly review the deadlock. In no feasible scenario can the Conservatives deliver any Brexit agreement. Nothing they offer has any meaning. In no feasible scenario will their withdrawal agreement legislation pass in the House of Commons. They don't want a general election, but the current Commons will not give them what they want. Nor does this Commons, or this government, want a 'no deal' Brexit. Nor does this Commons, or this government, want to revoke Article 50, or delay it and hold a second referendum. Nor does this Commons want to vote 'no confidence' in May, and risk a general election with a possible Labour victory.

There you have it. Stalemate in the apparatuses of government. Resentment and 'betrayal' among Brexiters. Mounting dread and frustration among Remainers. There are three ways this situation can change. First, there is such a Brexit-driven backlash, that the Tories feel compelled to force through 'no deal'. That's extremely unlikely, even under a Boris Johnson-led cabinet. It would essentially be the suicide of the Conservative Party as the party of business. Second, the Conservatives are so thoroughly decimated in terms of their authority and ability to assemble a majority that they have to call a general election. That would be my preferred exit fantasy, but it's even less likely. A strong showing for the Brexit Party would only confirm the Tories' desire not to call an election, and it's quite clear that neither the Tory-CUK defectors nor the DUP are going to cause the government to fall. Third, the leakage of Labour votes to Remain parties is so significant that Corbyn feels obliged to declare for a public vote. Not as something to be kept on the table, but as the first priority. And he wins it in the Commons, and then Remain wins the day in a second referendum.

In the Remainer exit fantasy, Corbyn is currently the major obstacle to achieving their goals. He is a secret Brexiter. He is treacherously abandoning the grassroots. And it isn't just the Labour Right. It isn't just Alistair Campbell, Andrew Adonis, Tom Watson, and the poll-bottoming CUK defectors. This view appears to have vocal supporters on the Left, from Paul Mason to Clive Lewis. Lewis, anticipating a Remain groundswell on Thursday, is now openly challenging Corbyn to campaign for a public vote or risk losing his position.

To give fantasy its due, there are aspects of this that tap into reality. Leadership matters, especially in a volatile situation. You can shape preferences more when they're not fixed. Corbyn, if he was convinced that a public vote now would be a good idea, and the best use of Labour's energies, could probably sway most of his supporters behind it. He has more clout now than he did in 2016, when he was completely ignored in the press coverage of the Brexit campaign. He could probably have a little more success in imbuing a public vote campaign with his own politics. And, if Labour were to swing behind a public vote, it might even have to defend 'free movement' again: the pusillanimity on this issue being a gift to the racists.

However, there the realism ends. Corbyn's position is not realistically threatened within Labour. His 'keep all options on the table' stance is well entrenched, with 66 per cent of NEC votes backing it in April. His position would be more likely to be threatened in a direct way were he to campaign for a second vote, as that would risk splitting the shadow cabinet, and would be unpopular with union backers. His supporters in the membership have never prioritised Brexit, and have tended to support his approach. In electoral terms, even with the current volatility, Labour is still the most likely winner of a general election. But even if he were threatened by a Remainer groundswell, and even if that were to convert him to Hard Remain overnight, it doesn't follow that there would be a pathway to a second referendum, or that it would win.

Past results are no guarantee of future performance, but if you want an idea of the parliamentary arithmetic, look at the indicative votes in April. On the issue of a second referendum, Labour was pretty strongly behind it. 203 voted for it, 24 opposed, and 16 abstained. That's forty Labour 'noes' and abstentions, probably not that far from the core of Labour MPs who would prefer not to have a second referendum under any circumstances. The major opposition came from the Tories, 253 of whom voted against, only 15 in favour, and 45 abstained. Of those abstainers, 35 were cabinet ministers. Now suppose a motion for a second referendum was put before the Commons after the European elections. What is there to lead anyone to think that there will be more parliamentary support for a public vote, after the Brexit Party has surged into second or first place? What makes anyone sure that, if Labour MPs were whipped to vote, more of them would vote 'yes' than 'no'? How would cabinet ministers vote, faced with such a motion?

Even if a second referendum was obtained, upon what are Remainers basing their confidence that they would win? The idea that after a couple of years we have all wised up doesn't chime with the evidence. A clear and growing plurality of voters would rather leave with 'no deal' than delay Article 50 and have another vote. The fear of 'betrayal', of a 'stitch-up', is driving more people into the hardest Brexit camp. That doesn't bode well for the outcome of any new referendum. And presumably it has occurred to Remainers in their darker moments that such a campaign would be filthy, ugly, violent. And that a second victory for Brexit would be incomparably worse and less manageable than the fall-out from the first.

The core element of all our unavailing exit fantasies is that, we could have what we want if it weren't for some 'bastard' somewhere stopping us. That there's nothing structural about our deadlock. That the tradition of dead generations doesn't weigh on us. That there is no inherent tragedy in politics. That it is sufficient for the right person to do 'the right thing'. That political judgment amounts to knowing where to direct resentment. To the extent that they work like this, we will of course remain captive.

 

 

[snowychap]

56 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Regardless of deadlines and analogies, I really think the bottom line is simple. The application takes maximum 5 minutes. Everyone knew about ILRs when they first came to the UK. It's free. 

So regardless of something that you said wasn't the case (but appears to be according to the government) and an inadequate analogy that you made, you press ahead with a claim that the application takes a maximum of 5 minutes when there is plenty of anecdotal evidence out there (which is all the evidence you've suppplied) that this is incorrect as it has taken people much longer than that (including in some cases physical trips to various centres where they need to make the application)?

You also talk about ILR as though it's the only immigration status.

I very much doubt your claim about Indefinite Leave to Remain being 'known about by everyone' when they first came in to this country as an EU citizen exercising their rights (which they would have known about).

From what I can see, the cost of ILR last year was £2389.

Edited May 20, 2019 by snowychap

[Mic09]

31 minutes ago, snowychap said:

So regardless of something that you said wasn't the case (but appears to be according to the government) and an inadequate analogy that you made, you press ahead with a claim that the application takes a maximum of 5 minutes when there is plenty of anecdotal evidence out there (which is all the evidence you've suppplied) that this is incorrect as it has taken people much longer than that (including in some cases physical trips to various centres where they need to make the application)?

You also talk about ILR as though it's the only immigration status.

I very much doubt your claim about Indefinite Leave to Remain being 'known about by everyone' when they first came in to this country as an EU citizen exercising their rights (which they would have known about).

From what I can see, the cost of ILR last year was £2389.

The evidence I got is first hand experience of doing this application online and 3 close people who have done likewise. It takes 5 minutes. It's free. We all got ILR. It is not £2389. I can assure you the application couldn't be simpler and I'm fairly confident an 8 year old could do it. Download the app yourself and have a look - it couldn't be any easier, you can go over the steps and check it out. I'm the biggest opponent of beaurocracy you will find and that was the smoothest government process I have ever come across.

You are right, I guess ILR wasn't known to everyone when they moved the UK. But let me ask you this.

Would you move to a foreign country (Australia, US, whatever country you want) without spending 5 minutes reading about the immigration laws and finding out how to stay here permanently? I knew about ILR. And I came here as a kid. Why didn't they read about it? It's been what, 4 years since the referendum been announced? Why is this a problem? And why is this a problem now?