StefanAVFC Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 8 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: I must watch to much Question Time, but it seems one of the big reasons the other parties are not voting for the deal is for there own political agenda, not caring about the referendum result. The WA is as restrictive as it is solely because of May's own red lines and political agenda. Other parties are pushing for different things (Norway, customs union etc) which would be more fairly reflective of a 52-48 split of an advisory referendum. 9 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: The deals not gonna change It would if Theresa May climbed down on FoM as an example. 9 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: we have to leave now, Why do we have to? 10 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: so lets get on with it. Urgh 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 15 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: I must watch to much Question Time, but it seems one of the big reasons the other parties are not voting for the deal is for there own political agenda, not caring about the referendum result. The deals not gonna change, an we have to leave now, so lets get on with it. It's just the start, this was supposed to be the easy bit!!! As long as you remember QT is a stitch up. Apparently one outspoken 'member of the public' that was lucky in the draw for tickets and got to share his views last night was an aide of Nadine Dorries MP. I can't watch it, myself. To suggest that one political party won't vote to help a different political party with a different political agenda in the hope of gaining some advantage for themselves... well, I think that's terribly cynical of you. I don't know, it's almost like we should have thrashed out what people wanted and what was acceptable 2 years ago. Rather than starting the clock and then doing nothing, in secret, for 23 months and 2 weeks. Then attempting to tell others off for not co-operating. She's not the worst PM ever, but she's having a cracking good go at the title. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 28 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: this was supposed to be the easy bit!!! The people that told you that lied to you...we've been trying to tell you for 2 years and if that still hasn't dawned on you I really don't know what to say anymore. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 9 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: The WA is as restrictive as it is solely because of May's own red lines and political agenda. Other parties are pushing for different things (Norway, customs union etc) which would be more fairly reflective of a 52-48 split of an advisory referendum. Ish. In a different situation, the backstop might just be Northern Ireland only as the EU wanted. But even if it were a remain super-team sorting out the wooliest, non-brexity Brexit imaginable the withdrawal agreement would still look pretty much the same as the existing one. Backstop and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Ish. In a different situation, the backstop might just be Northern Ireland only as the EU wanted. But even if it were a remain super-team sorting out the wooliest, non-brexity Brexit imaginable the withdrawal agreement would still look pretty much the same as the existing one. Backstop and all. In a customs union/the single market there is no need for a backstop and the only thing stopping a customs union or the single market is the red line of ending FoM. Edited March 15, 2019 by StefanAVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 19 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: In a customs union/the single market there is no need for a backstop and the only thing stopping a customs union or the single market is the red line of ending FoM. Which would be hypothetically fine for now. But the DWA isn't designed for just now. Let's say (for sake of argument) that there is no backstop. In 2027, a Conservative landslide victory sees them decide to ditch the earlier plan and do their own thing. In the "no backstop" version, what stops them doing this? What is it that protects Ireland and the other 26 against the Rees-Mogg Government of ten years in the future, if not the backstop? The backstop is in any version of this, outside of EU membership. It's there, because it means that it doesn't matter if it's an incompetent Labour Government or an incompetent Conservative Government setting policy. It's all-weather, legally binding and will be in a Labour withdrawal agreement or a Conservative one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 6 minutes ago, ml1dch said: Which would be hypothetically fine for now. But the DWA isn't designed for just now. Let's say (for sake of argument) that there is no backstop. In 2027, a Conservative landslide victory sees them decide to ditch the earlier plan and do their own thing. In the "no backstop" version, what stops them doing this? What is it that protects Ireland and the other 26 against the Rees-Mogg Government of ten years in the future, if not the backstop? The backstop is in any version of this, outside of EU membership. It's there, because it means that it doesn't matter if it's an incompetent Labour Government or an incompetent Conservative Government setting policy. It's all-weather, legally binding and will be in a Labour withdrawal agreement or a Conservative one. As far as I know, being tied into a customs union/single market is legally binding and would need the similar sort of nonsense we have been enduring now. You can't say just 'lads we're done being in the Single Market' much like you can't just say 'We're leaving the EU'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: As far as I know, being tied into a customs union/single market is legally binding and would need the similar sort of nonsense we have been enduring now. You can't say just 'lads we're done being in the Single Market' much like you can't just say 'We're leaving the EU'. Legally binding in the sense that there is a legal treaty underpinning it? Sure. Legally binding in the sense that we can't get out of it, ever? No. Put it another way - if the plan is to change virtually nothing, meaning it's not needed anyway what's the objection to it being there? Is there a scenario under the CU / SM plan whereby it's existence would be a bad thing? If not, why not just leave it there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 15, 2019 Author Moderator Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: She's not the worst PM ever, but she's having a cracking good go at the title. She's in the top 1. Just inched past Hammy Cameron, IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted March 15, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted March 15, 2019 1 minute ago, blandy said: She's in the top 1. Just inched past Hammy Cameron, IMO. Cue @tonyh29 with Brown/Blair/Callaghan/Wilson in 3... 2... 1... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted March 15, 2019 Author Moderator Share Posted March 15, 2019 3 minutes ago, mjmooney said: Cue @tonyh29 with Brown/Blair/Callaghan/Wilson in 3... 2... 1... You could make an argument for Blair, what with the Iraq lies and war and deaths and stuff, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 (edited) I think Blair is in with a shout for number 1. He was a cracking PM based on domestic policy, and oversaw the most prosperous era in most Brit's lifetime. Being a murderous religious nutjob takes the shine off the minimum wage and funding for the NHS though. It's probably small comfort to May that she's the worst PM ever, except for the guy that was responsible for the deaths of millions, though. Edited March 15, 2019 by Davkaus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristchurchVillan Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 Blair only did what any British pm has ever done and that is to cosy up to the US and do as we're told military wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, mjmooney said: Cue @tonyh29 with Brown/Blair/Callaghan/Wilson in 3... 2... 1... Brown is the only one I’ve ever commented on as the worst tbf and even then I believe May has eclipsed him i didnt vote for Blair or particularly like him but I’ve not called him a bad PM , ironically he’s become more unpopular / seem as a bad PM since he stopped being PM 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 15 minutes ago, Davkaus said: He was a cracking PM based on domestic policy Other than ASBOs, more secrecy in the courts process, anti-terror legislation that changed the presumption of innocence, and more... Oh and massively increasing the sidelining of Parliament which has helped to lead to where we are today, i.e. an executive leading a minority government that can't even control a significant number of its own cabinet still assumes (mostly rightly) it can get away with ignoring the will of Parliament. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 dead witch is No. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 18 minutes ago, snowychap said: Other than ASBOs, more secrecy in the courts process, anti-terror legislation that changed the presumption of innocence, and more... Oh and massively increasing the sidelining of Parliament which has helped to lead to where we are today, i.e. an executive leading a minority government that can't even control a significant number of its own cabinet still assumes (mostly rightly) it can get away with ignoring the will of Parliament. Goes without saying. But apart from that, and the murdering, he wasn't bad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 33 minutes ago, ChristchurchVillan said: Blair only did what any British pm has ever done and that is to cosy up to the US and do as we're told military wise. It's getting bonkers in this thread if people are even starting to defend Blair?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 15, 2019 Share Posted March 15, 2019 7 minutes ago, Davkaus said: Goes without saying. But apart from that, and the murdering, he wasn't bad. And the PFI, more marketisation in the NHS, Lord Fraud and his 'welfare-to-work' review and policies, and Alastair Campbell. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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