colhint Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 2 hours ago, Enda said: Which EU projects were cancelled in 2009? Sorry If I used the wrong phrase, I meant since the EURO crisis, so not all in 2009. Anyway the ones I can think of were the gas pipelines for Italy and Greece, and off shore pipelines between the same. I only know these because a friend was mean't to be working on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 32 minutes ago, Chindie said: That easy trade deal... What happens when Britain decides it can make that cheese with some new process that uses chemicals the EU bans? But it's more profitable? Or some US company uses our 'great new trade deal' to push a substandard product via a new UK subsidiary? Rinse and repeat for every **** product imaginable. It's not just about tariffs. The Danish comments the Leave vote has smugly tossed itself off to over the last few days had a follow up they conveniently ignore, where the same bloke said it was in Denmark's interest to be united with the EU27 position. I make a vast chunk of my living out of food products and the testing of it , companies spend millions getting the formulas safe , healthy or whatever to meet food standards around the world (It took 5 years on one product in particular I was involved in to get a version that the public both liked and met all the requirements ) , do you think they are going to say , phew now we are out of the EU we can add Carmoisine back to our smarties ? A food safety study of 17 western nations found the UK was the fourth best place for food safety in the world ... Germany, Italy, Sweden & Belgium all fell in the lower regions of that study (interestingly the USA , home of the won't somebody think of the children as we feed them chlorinated chicken , came 6th , above the aforementioned bastions of food safety in the EU ) Someone linked to an EU ignorance site the other day , perhaps we need one for ignorant comment remainers make .. empty shelves, no planes , chemicals in our cheese ... that 's a line straight out of Project Fear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: my bad , I was kinda paraphrasing Portilo's comments on This week late night rather than expressing my own view that it would be easy per se It is the line that the likes of Portillo/Redwood/Fox/Davis/Hannan keep on dismissively saying. Quote but to a degree , I guess all the trade agreements are already in place as they are currently agreed by all 28 ... that it becomes 27 with the one coming out shouldn't see too much disagreement I guess ... hey remember that deal we had to let you sell your Cheese that we like and we sell you that cheese that you like ... shall we just agree to continue to do so ..... yeah I know it's not THAT simple and another nation could say hey if we get tariffs on UK cheese we can sell more of our inferior stuff to the rest of Europe etc ... The Danes have kinda come out and said they want to move forward on a trade deal (or could ironically be a rogue foreign minister speaking out of turn !!) , or that it's everyone's interest to agree one , as have a few other nations , so I think that's where the relatively easy assertion springs from Hold on, aren't you just repeating the have the cake (cheese) and eat it line? Are you seriously suggesting that an EU-UK trade deal post brexit is just going to see nothing changing? That's not even possible, is it? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 14 minutes ago, colhint said: Sorry If I used the wrong phrase, I meant since the EURO crisis, so not all in 2009. Anyway the ones I can think of were the gas pipelines for Italy and Greece, and off shore pipelines between the same. I only know these because a friend was mean't to be working on them. Sorry about the phrasing, I was just making sure we were on the same page. I don't know about the gas pipelines in Italy and Greece, but to make it fairer the EU budget is based partly on a percent of GDP of memberstates. Contributions are roughly 1% of GDP (see this BBC link for an idea) so If the UK is in a recession the amount you have to pay is less, and you have to pay more during good times, etc. The EU also has a balanced budget requirement, so if there's a worldwide recession and contributions fall, some projects get cut. That's probably why your friend's pipeline project didn't get the go-ahead. But a cut because the budget is 1% of a small number instead of 1% of a big number is different to a country refusing to hand over its 1%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enda Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: A food safety study of 17 western nations found the UK was the fourth best place for food safety in the world ... Germany, Italy, Sweden & Belgium all fell in the lower regions of that study (interestingly the USA , home of the won't somebody think of the children as we feed them chlorinated chicken , came 6th , above the aforementioned bastions of food safety in the EU ) Someone linked to an EU ignorance site the other day , perhaps we need one for ignorant comment remainers make .. empty shelves, no planes , chemicals in our cheese ... that 's a line straight out of Project Fear Tony you're basically saying that all these EU regulations aren't a burden after all! If you lot plan on being compliant with EU regulations anyway then there's little benefit to leaving the single market. Sure stay in then. We won't mind. Reasonable deal, that. We'll only have a problem if you do want to substantially lower your standards (to below the EU's). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chindie said: The idea that the wider Leave vote wasn't ignorant is completely stupid. I think that is a bit harsh mate. This decision shouldn't have been put to the public to decide in a referendum but having done so the politicians then had a duty to be honest with those who now had to make the decision. They weren't on both sides. Whilst you can say the leave side dressed it up as something it can never be and made totally false promises the remain side dropped a huge bollock by going with the downside of what would happen if we left rather than focusing on the positives of staying. They approached it in completely the wrong way and from the remain side it was a very downbeat campaign. I am under no illusions that a proportion of those who voted leave did so because they are racist and/or xenophobic. They did so because they thought it was a way of stopping those of a darker skin and different religious beliefs coming over here. I have no time for those kind of people and they are fair game for abuse. The majority though did it based on false promises by leave and a poor, downbeat campaign by remain. They were let down by both sides. Edited October 13, 2017 by markavfc40 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 3 minutes ago, Enda said: Tony you're basically saying that all these EU regulations aren't a burden after all! If you lot plan on being compliant with EU regulations anyway then there's little benefit to leaving the single market. Sure stay in then. We won't mind. Reasonable deal, that. We'll only have a problem if you do want to substantially lower your standards (to below the EU's). I've never claimed that EU regulations are a burden ... Where I kinda challenge the view is that these things only happen because of the EU ... see the data roaming that the EU gave us in June , that some phone Networks were already offering before the EU "abolished " them safety evolves , we used to send kids down coal mines , but don't now ( and not just because Thatcher closed them all ) , it's not because the EU dragged us to do these things kicking and screaming , it's just a natural evolution , maybe the EU laws mean they happen at a faster pace but it's not the only reason they happen but as I said , our standards are higher than many EU countries , who presumably are adhering to EU safety rules and regulations ... why do some people think everyone is going to suddenly abandon them ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 16 minutes ago, snowychap said: Hold on, aren't you just repeating the have the cake (cheese) and eat it line? not intentionally 16 minutes ago, snowychap said: Are you seriously suggesting that an EU-UK trade deal post brexit is just going to see nothing changing? That's not even possible, is it? no ... but equally it's not like we need to throw everything away and start with a blank sheet of paper , it's like the project I'm trying to setup today ( but getting side-tracked in this thread) .. it's not identical to one I ran a few months back , but it's close enough that I've cloned it and now just need to tweak it , hence it wont take as long as it would have otherwise ( simplified analogy I know ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: I think that is a bit harsh mate. This decision shouldn't have been put to the public to decide in a referendum but having done so the politicians then had a duty to be honest with those who now had to make the decision. They weren't on both sides. Whilst you can say the leave side dressed it up as something it can never be and made totally false promises the remain side dropped a huge bollock by going with the downside of what would happen if we left rather than focusing on the positives of staying. They approached it in completely the wrong way and from the remain side it was a very downbeat campaign. I am under no illusions that a proportion of those who voted leave did so because they are racist and/or xenophobic. They did so because they thought it was a way of stopping those of a darker skin and different religious beliefs coming over here. I have no time for those kind of people and they are fair game for abuse. The majority though did it based on false promises by leave and a poor, downbeat campaign by remain. They were let down by both sides. I can agree with that , but would add that some also did evaluate the situation and come to a conclusion based on how they evaluated the merits of In and out .. that's the bit that seems to get overlooked .. Chindie seems to want to simplify it to your are either a moron or you aren't .. that's the bit I struggle with , there are smarter people than him that opted to vote leave ( there are also smarter people than him that opted to vote remain for balance ) , but a lot of remain people just don't want to accept that this could be the case and thus have gone for the belittling and condescending approach , as you say in some cases that's warranted , but not all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 13, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted October 13, 2017 1 hour ago, Chindie said: And yet a small majority decides they understand enough to change the status quo I think the tories decided people understood enough to change the status quo, and then just to compound that mistake, made barely any effort to provide them (us) with the necessary information for us to understand. And then this was compounded by a shower of cees in the press and on their bus and on the radio etc lying It's hard to blame people given a vote for using it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 13, 2017 Author Moderator Share Posted October 13, 2017 23 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: your are either a moron or you aren't .. that's the bit I struggle with If you can't work out which you are, then, er. I have some bad news for you 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 13, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted October 13, 2017 53 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I make a vast chunk of my living out of food products and the testing of it , companies spend millions getting the formulas safe , healthy or whatever to meet food standards around the world (It took 5 years on one product in particular I was involved in to get a version that the public both liked and met all the requirements ) , do you think they are going to say , phew now we are out of the EU we can add Carmoisine back to our smarties ? A food safety study of 17 western nations found the UK was the fourth best place for food safety in the world ... Germany, Italy, Sweden & Belgium all fell in the lower regions of that study (interestingly the USA , home of the won't somebody think of the children as we feed them chlorinated chicken , came 6th , above the aforementioned bastions of food safety in the EU ) Someone linked to an EU ignorance site the other day , perhaps we need one for ignorant comment remainers make .. empty shelves, no planes , chemicals in our cheese ... that 's a line straight out of Project Fear I'm aware of your job. And it is more than just safety. It's ethical standards and processes etc. I use cheese because you raise it. Could be anything, any product. There are standards etc etc that will be need to be met to continue to trade with the market. And not trading with the market is stupid. So we continue with the required regulation but we now do so from a weaker position. Great! You can choose to argue the minutiae of the example or engage with the wider point being made. The wider point being the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 13, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted October 13, 2017 45 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: I think that is a bit harsh mate. This decision shouldn't have been put to the public to decide in a referendum but having done so the politicians then had a duty to be honest with those who now had to make the decision. They weren't on both sides. Whilst you can say the leave side dressed it up as something it can never be and made totally false promises the remain side dropped a huge bollock by going with the downside of what would happen if we left rather than focusing on the positives of staying. They approached it in completely the wrong way and from the remain side it was a very downbeat campaign. I am under no illusions that a proportion of those who voted leave did so because they are racist and/or xenophobic. They did so because they thought it was a way of stopping those of a darker skin and different religious beliefs coming over here. I have no time for those kind of people and they are fair game for abuse. The majority though did it based on false promises by leave and a poor, downbeat campaign by remain. They were let down by both sides. The decision shouldn't have been put to the public, I agree. I've long argued that referendums only work for basic and ultimately meaningless decisions - do we like this flag etc. Complex things shouldn't be decided like this. But given that was the choice I've got little time for people who choose to vote and didn't look into it. Really look into it. Yes I'm harsh but in truth I'm still quite angry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted October 13, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted October 13, 2017 32 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: I can agree with that , but would add that some also did evaluate the situation and come to a conclusion based on how they evaluated the merits of In and out .. that's the bit that seems to get overlooked .. Chindie seems to want to simplify it to your are either a moron or you aren't .. that's the bit I struggle with , there are smarter people than him that opted to vote leave ( there are also smarter people than him that opted to vote remain for balance ) , but a lot of remain people just don't want to accept that this could be the case and thus have gone for the belittling and condescending approach , as you say in some cases that's warranted , but not all There are smarter people than tonyh29 too. I'm sure a few leave votes did research it. I'd stake good money it would be a vanishingly small amount (on either side) that properly researched it, not that we will ever know, but can not see that voting to walk away from something your economy is based around is really quite silly? And a little research and thought would have shown that? Even if you think, like you seem to, that trade deals are easy and everything will be fine... You're voting for the chance it might not be. Smarter people than Chindie made that choice. But smart people can be ignorant. I'd like to think I'm reasonably intelligent, but put me in charge of a reactor and we'd have Chernobyl 2 in an hour. Lots of people are more ignorant of the way of the EU works and it's relationship with the UK and the wider world than me. Including, I'd wager, you. And I'd wager even more money that was more true in June last year than now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 52 minutes ago, markavfc40 said: poor, downbeat campaign by remain Have you read this? Might explain why leave had more show https://waitingfortax.com/2017/09/18/16188/ In early August, shortly following the Referendum, the inestimable Marie Le Conte broke a story about a Mr Darren Grimes: Mr Grimes was a fashion design student with a modest presence on social media: around 6,000 Facebook fans and 4,000 Twitter followers. In the weeks leading up to the Referendum campaign Vote Leave had, or so we were told, given Mr Grimes £625,000 and he had received a further £50,000 from an unidentified individual. The total was just under the £700,000 Steve Baker’s email foretold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) 20 minutes ago, darrenm said: Have you read this? Might explain why leave had more show https://waitingfortax.com/2017/09/18/16188/ I have not read all the article you linked mate but it seems to be about what leave did. It was was just as much about what remain didn't do though. They had just as much air time and just as much opportunity to get their message across. It should have been a positive one focusing on the positives of staying in the EU, the benefits it gives us all. They went the opposite way though and they focused on the downside of leaving and got entrenched in a very negative campaign. It gave the impression that what we have isn't very good but what we will end up with will be worse. What the remain campaign should have done was say to people what we have is good it gives us this, this and this etc and we should preserve that. The leave campaign offered something more, even if it was falsely, whilst remain failed to promote how good things already were. As I said you had lies on both sides but one side used them to promote a positive outcome the other used them to predict doom and gloom. Combined it produced the result we got but had remain been more positive I am sure it would have been enough for the outcome to have been reversed. Edited October 13, 2017 by markavfc40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chindie said: There are smarter people than tonyh29 too. there is a person who shares my username on another forum , I'm not even the smartest tonyh29 Edited October 13, 2017 by tonyh29 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 2 hours ago, tonyh29 said: Someone linked to an EU ignorance site the other day , perhaps we need one for ignorant comment remainers make .. empty shelves, no planes , chemicals in our cheese ... that 's a line straight out of Project Fear You not understanding how laws work won't prevent them from being implemented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: there is a person who shares my username on another forum , I'm not even the smartest tonyh29 There's a youtube user with the name Brumerican. He's an absolute row of tents Edited October 13, 2017 by Brumerican Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 6 hours ago, darrenm said: Possibly not 100% on topic but so brilliant. This gets better. Now Hammond has referred to Brussels as the enemy today, he technically could be guilty of treason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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