The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[bickster]

Them goddam EU rules and regulations people were so desperate to get rid of... Bet Ryan Air passengers who've been bumped are rather grateful for the pesky red tape that's a barrier to business

[tonyh29]

41 minutes ago, bickster said:

Them goddam EU rules and regulations people were so desperate to get rid of... Bet Ryan Air passengers who've been bumped are rather grateful for the pesky red tape that's a barrier to business

Cause airlines give away free money out the kindness of their heart and don’t make passengers pay for it in ticket prices or extortionate fees ? 

Great if you fly once a year and bag yourself a €220 euro delay on a £40 flight though 

 

 

 

[blandy]

36 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

Cause airlines give away free money out the kindness of their heart and don’t make passengers pay for it in ticket prices or extortionate fees ? 

Fees have gone down over the years. You could argue business rates on major airlines are "extortionate" as they're not really price sensitive, but it's hard to argue that holiday/tripper fares are "extortionate", isn't it?

[colhint]

On 9/29/2017 at 16:16, blandy said:

Thanks for expanding.

The Irish government set up tax arrangements which apple found to be beneficial (as did Ireland, as it attracts companies). It allows apple (once they got big) to pay low rates of tax, as set up and permitted under Irish law. The Irish Gov't and Apple say compliance with Irish law was established. So any arrangements were set up by Ireland.

The EU has in recent years been looking at various arrangements in low tax states and assessing whether they comply with EU law. They deemed that the Irish Gov't one gave Apple (in this case) an unfair competitive advantage (because of the low rates) compared to other Co.s.

The alleged "crime" was by Ireland, the alleged beneficiary was Apple and the "police" was the EU. 

So they might have taken a while to catch the bad guy (and it's a repeated thing - other nations and Corporations have also been "caught") but the EU isn't the "Wrongdoer" - the EU is the (slow reacting, I accept) fire brigade, not the arsonist in all this. No EU and Ireland and Apple would be able to go on with the "avoidance".

Just thought I'd come back to this. 

I agree the EU has not broken any law,  nor is it the wrongdoer. Or is it?

If Ireland are not fined what have they lost by breaking EU rules, nothing that I can see. If the EU wins, what happens. Apple pay Ireland 9bn in lost taxes.

What happens then. do Apple stay in Ireland and play by the rules?

What about Spain or Greece with massive unemployment, why wouldn't they say Apple come to us we'll offer you  1% tax , employ thousands of our kids. 

. By the way if you get caught, we'll support you, like Ireland. It'll take at least a decade to be resolved, even if the EU get really switched on, and I'm sure we can stretch that out to 20 years.

And Even if you do get caught, we'll get thousands back into work for 20 years,and get all our money back. You on the other hand pay no taxes, bang all the money in some funds, and pay the taxes then, Obviously keeping all the interest to yourselves.

Win win isn't it.

[OutByEaster?]

So, the way to attract Apple and get around the EU's desire to have an equitable tax level between member nations is to leave their jurisdiction and turn your nation into an off shore tax con for major corporations?

 

[blandy]

11 hours ago, colhint said:

Just thought I'd come back to this. 

I agree the EU has not broken any law,  nor is it the wrongdoer. Or is it?

If Ireland are not fined what have they lost by breaking EU rules, nothing that I can see. If the EU wins, what happens. Apple pay Ireland 9bn in lost taxes.

What happens then. do Apple stay in Ireland and play by the rules?

What about Spain or Greece with massive unemployment, why wouldn't they say Apple come to us we'll offer you  1% tax , employ thousands of our kids. 

. By the way if you get caught, we'll support you, like Ireland. It'll take at least a decade to be resolved, even if the EU get really switched on, and I'm sure we can stretch that out to 20 years.

And Even if you do get caught, we'll get thousands back into work for 20 years,and get all our money back. You on the other hand pay no taxes, bang all the money in some funds, and pay the taxes then, Obviously keeping all the interest to yourselves.

Win win isn't it.

Currently Apple have to pay the backlog of billions in taxes, is what the EU has ruled, which will be a win for Ireland’s population. As with all these things, it’s being appealed by Ireland, who say they set their tax rates and Apple followed the law and paid their taxes.

itvseems like, bluntly, Ireland set very low tax rates to attract businesses, Apple was attracted and used those low rates to their advantage  The EU is dealing with these dodgy tax deals, as only a multi-nation body can. The tax rates are used by big businesses to shuffle money around so they pay almost no taxes.  Individual nations acting alone can do very little to stop it. While it goes on, people like you or I are paying whatever, 20, 30, 40% rates of tax and the likes of Apple, Google, Vodaphone pay almost nothing. Doesn’t seem fair or right to me. Individual nations, like Ireland and like the UK made that happen, indeed set it up so that could happen. It’s the EU that is getting to grips with it and trying and succeeding in getting taxes paid by these huge companies  it’s doing so because of its weight, covering as it does so many nations and people and the size of the EU marketplace.  Like I said the EU is the fireman putting out fires started by arsonist governments and businesses. I personally don’t side with the arsonists on this one.

 

[darrenm]

I think the premise of this article is absolutely correct https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/29/labour-nightmare-brexit-empties-coffers-corbynite-dream-public-investment

All but the most deluded Brexiteers concede that departing from the EU will hurt the economy, for a few years at the very least. Corbyn and McDonnell have big plans that will cost big money. But, thanks to Brexit, they will find less cash in the coffers, and less market willingness to lend the country any more. They will face early the shadow that has hung over every reforming Labour government: the prospect of the money running out.

Labour's plan to reverse austerity by taxing and flooding the economy is sound. It's pretty standard Keynesian and recommended by most economists. But it relies on the economy not having a sudden crash from huge trade barriers being put up, massive tarriffs, lack of skilled workers. It's fully costed now but by the time some people realise we don't make a lot from exporting jam while trying to import almost everything else, McDonnell's plan won't work.

I still hope that 'remain and reform' Corbyn is just following the wind of populism here and when in a safe place, will pursue some kind of reversal of article 50. As it looks like there will be a Tory leadership contest any time soon, and brexit talks failing, there's every possibility of another GE soon. I'd hope at that point Labour would set out their position on the EU quite clearly and fight the campaign on that.

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, darrenm said:

 

I still hope that 'remain and reform' Corbyn is just following the wind of populism here and when in a safe place, will pursue some kind of reversal of article 50. As it looks like there will be a Tory leadership contest any time soon, and brexit talks failing, there's every possibility of another GE soon. I'd hope at that point Labour would set out their position on the EU quite clearly and fight the campaign on that.

2

Corbyn has been against membership of the EU his entire career, I wouldn't be expecting a sea change there. The only thing that will change policy is when the Unions (apart from the RMT) tell him to change it , just be aware that he'll be doing as he's told

[bickster]

Can somebody please elect Michael Heseltine leader of the Tory Party now, please. He just spoke the most sense I've heard from a Tory in ... well a bloody long time

[darrenm]

Just now, bickster said:

Corbyn has been against membership of the EU his entire career, I wouldn't be expecting a sea change there. The only thing that will change policy is when the Unions (apart from the RMT) tell him to change it , just be aware that he'll be doing as he's told

I know he has, but in this particular referendum he still did campaign pretty heavily for remain and the message was to remain and reform. I assume he sees that membership now with the UK having almost no manufacturing left is a lot more important economically than it was when we were in a much stronger position in the 80s and even 90s

[bickster]

Just now, darrenm said:

I know he has, but in this particular referendum he still did campaign pretty heavily for remain and the message was to remain and reform. I assume he sees that membership now with the UK having almost no manufacturing left is a lot more important economically than it was when we were in a much stronger position in the 80s and even 90s

Must have missed that, I saw him on the Marr Show give his 7/10 answer and completely destroy any campaigning he may have pretended to do

[darrenm]

Just now, bickster said:

Must have missed that, I saw him on the Marr Show give his 7/10 answer and completely destroy any campaigning he may have pretended to do

Wasn't that just being honest? I've said it before, he was on a video or something almost every day on social media saying vote remain. Then (I saw it on the last leg) he said he was 7/10 in favour of the EU. He could've given a politicians answer or just lied but it's not really what he does is it?

[bickster]

9 minutes ago, darrenm said:

Wasn't that just being honest? I've said it before, he was on a video or something almost every day on social media saying vote remain. Then (I saw it on the last leg) he said he was 7/10 in favour of the EU. He could've given a politicians answer or just lied but it's not really what he does is it?

Here's the diplomatic honest answer. 

I'm not going to get into rating the EU Andrew, that's just silly. Do I think the EU is perfect? No. Reforms are needed but we can only influence that from being inside the EU, the EU gives our workers rights, etc etc.. but I do believe we need to look at the free movement of people...

That would have been an honest answer too

He deliberately gave that answer for a reason and that message resonated widely across Labour voters, Corbyns (I'm being kind) indifference to the EU whilst supposedly campaigning for it came across quite obviously and as such I hold him partly responsible for this absolute shambles, not as much as Cameron et al or even Boris and Gove but a small part is his fault and as we found out, the referendum was won by a very small margin

[Chindie]

Bit of a sideshow today with the EU Parliament having a vote on the state of talks. Bearing in mind the Parliament has nothing to do with the talks yet (it's role will come later in agreeing any 'deal'. Snigger), the whole thing is basically just a bell weather on the EU's view of the process so far.

Predictably, because it's literally what's been said for the past 3 months or so, they aren't impressed.

Also a bunch of Eurosceptic MEPs got to mouth off, including Farage, because of course he did.

Also I was in a presentation yesterday that had a bit of Brexit talk. That foresaw a no deal situation, and actually argued that it might be better for us to just accept that now and get on with things, because the waiting and uncertainty was making a very bad situation worse (lots of business works on longer timelines than 2 years for instance), and no deal was the only result that worked, despite being the worst for everyone. It also reiterated the 1 Vs 27 argument but went into a bit more detail. 

Brexit. **** stupid.

[HanoiVillan]

Under no circumstances is it better to accept 'no deal'. 

[Chindie]

41 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Under no circumstances is it better to accept 'no deal'. 

I don't disagree.

I could see the logic behind the call. Politically a deal is unsavoury, it'll place requirements Brexit is opposed to. There's also gains to be made on the EU from it - pinching financial services particularly was highlighted, with the additional benefit of pinching some high earners with it - they raised the point that Britain's tax base is now much more heavily reliant on taxing very high earners, many of whom are in the sector and would be welcome taxes elsewhere. So whilst both sides are gift to by no deal, there we certainly benefits. In the UK's care those benefits are basically a consolation prize, because no deal will absolutely hammer us for quite a while. And for many businesses as said they need certainty of what's happening - airlines, R&D investment.

So yes, no deal is **** stupid. But then Brexit also is, fittingly. No deal is a disaster, but it's probably what we'll get.

[blandy]

On 10/1/2017 at 11:51, darrenm said:

I still hope that 'remain and reform' Corbyn is just following the wind of populism here and when in a safe place, will pursue some kind of reversal of article 50.... there's every possibility of another GE soon. I'd hope at that point Labour would set out their position on the EU quite clearly and fight the campaign on that.

Really? I mean I get that it might be a wish. But all the pointers suggest it's not really a reasonable hope.

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

I don't disagree.

I could see the logic behind the call. Politically a deal is unsavoury, it'll place requirements Brexit is opposed to. There's also gains to be made on the EU from it - pinching financial services particularly was highlighted, with the additional benefit of pinching some high earners with it - they raised the point that Britain's tax base is now much more heavily reliant on taxing very high earners, many of whom are in the sector and would be welcome taxes elsewhere. So whilst both sides are gift to by no deal, there we certainly benefits. In the UK's care those benefits are basically a consolation prize, because no deal will absolutely hammer us for quite a while. And for many businesses as said they need certainty of what's happening - airlines, R&D investment.

So yes, no deal is **** stupid. But then Brexit also is, fittingly. No deal is a disaster, but it's probably what we'll get.

I see all of these points, but the government will just have to find a way to get to a deal. The consequences are too severe (for us) to contemplate otherwise. It's a crumb, but at last there's some, small, evidence that adults are beginning to make their voices heard:

'The Treasury and some of the prime minister’s most senior Brexit advisers are privately pushing May to agree to “converge” with Brussels regulation once Britain leaves the bloc so as not to restrict the U.K.’s access to the single market after a proposed two-year transition, officials, political aides and government ministers said.

According to two people, the Treasury is privately telling the prime minister it would be “mad” to cut off Britain’s access to trade with the EU in return for freedom to set Britain’s own regulation at home and hypothetical free-trade deals with other countries, which may take years to negotiate and have no guarantee of replacing trade lost with the Continent. The British economy would not benefit from a policy of regulatory divergence with the EU for up to 30 years, according to one estimate shared at senior levels of government.'

http://www.politico.eu/article/theresa-may-leans-towards-hammond-over-boris/

Not much, but it's a start. 

[Jon]

On 01/10/2017 at 12:02, bickster said:

Can somebody please elect Michael Heseltine leader of the Tory Party now, please. He just spoke the most sense I've heard from a Tory in ... well a bloody long time

You want a competent Tory leader? 

[bickster]

Just now, Jon said:

You want a competent Tory leader? 

I think I'm perfectly safe in the knowledge it has zero chance of happening