The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[blandy]

18 minutes ago, bickster said:

Absolutely agree with that but the problem is, that it's a discussion we need to have with ourselves and that discussion needs to be started by political leaders and the current opposition whose membership is broadly on one side of the discussion isn't having that conversation.

The discussion about the SM (& CU) is something that ought to have happened before we triggered article 50. But obviously it didn’t…because tories throb.

Where we are now, particularly with Labour, but even with the current lot, is that we’ve only just really got to almost the end of the actual leaving process (assuming the DUP are somehow shoved out of the way/ persuaded to stop scweaming and stamping their feet about Sinn Fein and its not fair).

So, you’ve got to have a proper go at trying out the version of Brexit that doesn’t have both sides (EU and Britain) actively obstructing each other, acting in bad faith and so on, which is where we were until very recently. Whoever gets in next, it is likely that the relationship with the EU will improve further, some of the bad things will be removed and Brexit will be less bad than now, for both sides. When Britain is in that place and situation and has had things running smoothly for a couple of years or more, that’s the time to start serious discussions nationally about joining the SM, because the background noise won’t be what it has been since 2016, which utterly drowned out serious discussion via either “that’s not Brexit, leave means leave” or “have another referendum to overturn the vote” type absolutism. You can’t discuss the nuances while people are just hurling abuse and nonsense.
 

Like I said, the subject should have been addressed before we triggered A50, but it wasn’t, and as much as a lot of people want to just make it all go away and rejoin, or remain furious about Brexit, and want it all sorted right now …sorry, that’s not happening. The prize (yeah, right) of Brexit is to go it alone in the wilderness for a bit, to accept the reality, to see and feel and understand it and only when that’s happened is any genuine debate about the SM going to be meaningful, because until that’s sunk in, it’ll just be a shallow repeat of 2016 and stupid slogans.

[sidcow]

8 minutes ago, blandy said:

The discussion about the SM (& CU) is something that ought to have happened before we triggered article 50. But obviously it didn’t…because tories throb.

Where we are now, particularly with Labour, but even with the current lot, is that we’ve only just really got to almost the end of the actual leaving process (assuming the DUP are somehow shoved out of the way/ persuaded to stop scweaming and stamping their feet about Sinn Fein and its not fair).

So, you’ve got to have a proper go at trying out the version of Brexit that doesn’t have both sides (EU and Britain) actively obstructing each other, acting in bad faith and so on, which is where we were until very recently. Whoever gets in next, it is likely that the relationship with the EU will improve further, some of the bad things will be removed and Brexit will be less bad than now, for both sides. When Britain is in that place and situation and has had things running smoothly for a couple of years or more, that’s the time to start serious discussions nationally about joining the SM, because the background noise won’t be what it has been since 2016, which utterly drowned out serious discussion via either “that’s not Brexit, leave means leave” or “have another referendum to overturn the vote” type absolutism. You can’t discuss the nuances while people are just hurling abuse and nonsense.
 

Like I said, the subject should have been addressed before we triggered A50, but it wasn’t, and as much as a lot of people want to just make it all go away and rejoin, or remain furious about Brexit, and want it all sorted right now …sorry, that’s not happening. The prize (yeah, right) of Brexit is to go it alone in the wilderness for a bit, to accept the reality, to see and feel and understand it and only when that’s happened is any genuine debate about the SM going to be meaningful, because until that’s sunk in, it’ll just be a shallow repeat of 2016 and stupid slogans.

Don't think stupid slogans will cut it now. 

The reality has been seen.  Can't put a big figure on the side of a bus now. 

Best they can do is make some vague promise of if we stay out it honestly will get better eventually honest.  It'll be a few years from now too so they won't even be able to trot out the current excuses about Pandmic and Global Recession. 

[Genie]

1 hour ago, sidcow said:

I reckon whoever gets in will spend the first 4 years forging closer ties to Europe, see how that goes and if they win a second term and feel rejoining would be the better option then run a second referendum so the will of the people can have it's way. 

It’s a must. There’s no chance we can grow the economy, and bring in money to pay for essential services without a better relationship with Europe.

[Genie]

Not great at this taking back control malarkey 

 

[Xann]

Hopefully Farage will have a seizure.

[bickster]

Just now, Demitri_C said:

Well surely the 52% or whatever the figure was who vited out will be hapoy as they wanted a hostile relation with the EU as otherwise why would uou have voted out!

• Many remain voters are quite frankly dead
• Many remain voters have changed their minds / didn't understand what they were voting for.
• New younger voters are prominently more pro-EU

In short, you should know this because its Demographics  

[StefanAVFC]

8 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Well surely the 52% or whatever the figure was who vited out will be hapoy as they wanted a hostile relation with the EU as otherwise why would uou have voted out!

As much as I dislike Leave voters, I'm sure only a very very tiny minority wanted hostility with the EU.

[Demitri_C]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

• Many remain voters are quite frankly dead
• Many remain voters have changed their minds / didn't understand what they were voting for.
• New younger voters are prominently more pro-EU

In short, you should know this because its Demographics  

I dont buy they didnt know what they were voted for sorry thats excusing their intelligence.  Are we trying to say 52÷ of the population didnt know what they were voting for?

Thats over half 

Thats me speaking with my expert demographics head on 

[Demitri_C]

1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said:

As much as I dislike Leave voters, I'm sure only a very very tiny minority wanted hostility with the EU.

Im not so sure.if you voted out you must reallg despise the EU if you trust a independent tory government to govern us

[StefanAVFC]

1 minute ago, Demitri_C said:

Im not so sure.if you voted out you must reallg despise the EU if you trust a independent tory government to govern us

We were never governed by the EU

[Demitri_C]

1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said:

We were never governed by the EU

It's all terminology but we were as we were following EU laws so we what we did in most cases eg bail out other eu members when they were financially **** eg greece and we couldn't object 

[blandy]

1 minute ago, Demitri_C said:

It's all terminology but we were as we were following EU laws so we what we did in most cases eg bail out other eu members when they were financially **** eg greece and we couldn't object 

That’s completely untrue.

[Demitri_C]

Just now, blandy said:

That’s completely untrue.

So EU countries dont have a obilgation to help other EU partners when they are financially up the creek?

[StefanAVFC]

The fundamental misunderstanding of how the EU works is literally the reason we voted out, and that wasn't unique to leave voters.

[blandy]

1 minute ago, Demitri_C said:

So EU countries dont have a obilgation to help other EU partners when they are financially up the creek?

Eurozone countries do. The UK, way back when, contributed to helping Portugal and Ireland when they had problems. But not Greece and I’m certain that the non Eurozone EU states are excluded from any liability to contribute to bailouts via the EU. The IMF though, we do contribute to, I think. But anyway, it was one of the Brexit lies that was spread by the various Tory/Faragey throbbers.

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Well it wasnt completely untrue then i just chose the wrong counrty to give as a example

. Thing is though, it was untrue because the rules were changed as well so non Eurozone members weren’t on the hook for bailing out Eurozone economies.  So Greece and Cyprus didn’t get any of your proper English blue passport pounds money to help them, but who likes Cyprus or Greece anyway? 

[sidcow]

46 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I dont buy they didnt know what they were voted for sorry thats excusing their intelligence.  Are we trying to say 52÷ of the population didnt know what they were voting for?

Thats over half 

Thats me speaking with my expert demographics head on 

Actually 0% of people knew what they were voting for.  What Brexit meant was never (and still hasn't) been defined.

They voted for what Brexit meant in their minds, many voted just for the hell of it (I know plenty).

However I definitely do question their intelligence.  You've voted to massively change the future and financial security of this nation, your life and your children's lives on the basis of something you don't even know what it is.

The whole thing was ludicrous from the start and no one ever thought the public were dumb enough to go for it.  Farage even admitted defeat at the start of the night......unfortunately no on actually realised just how truly dumb people are.

[Rolta]

51 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

It's all terminology but we were as we were following EU laws so we what we did in most cases eg bail out other eu members when they were financially **** eg greece and we couldn't object 

You do understand that 'WE' were the EU—you do understand that it's a union, right? That 'WE' were part of the governing process, complete with vetoes? The number of laws we voted against that were 'foisted' upon us is miniscule, and they amount to things like not putting certain carcinogens in wine—and part of being in a union is that there's some give and take.

We were governed by ourselves, but were part of a union when it came to our trade block. You do realise that when countries normally join trade blocks all the democratic stuff that happens in the EU (via the council and the parliament) actually doesn't exist, and we'd literally be forced to take on these 'laws' (standards) anyway. If we join this Pacific trade group, are people going to complain about being 'governed' by the trade group? No, they're not, because they literally had no idea what they were voting for in the referendum. If they don't want their intelligence questioned then they shouldn't say half-baked things that prove they had no idea what they were voting for.

One day the penny will drop that all the Leave bullshit is the standard bad-faith storytelling that all grifters and demagogues manage to hoodwink people with. It's the same generation after generation.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Rolta

[Genie]

11 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Actually 0% of people knew what they were voting for.  What Brexit meant was never (and still hasn't) been defined.

They voted for what Brexit meant in their minds, many voted just for the hell of it (I know plenty).

However I definitely do question their intelligence.  You've voted to massively change the future and financial security of this nation, your life and your children's lives on the basis of something you don't even know what it is.

The whole thing was ludicrous from the start and no one ever thought the public were dumb enough to go for it.  Farage even admitted defeat at the start of the night......unfortunately no on actually realised just how truly dumb people are.

Exactly.

The people of the UK already had free movement to 27 other countries. Not only can we go to these places to live, holiday or work we can also recruit from them. That’s an incredible resource on the doorstep. 

Our businesses already had tax, tariff and quota free trade with the biggest trading block on earth, amazing!

I’ll never know how so many people were convinced these were bad things we needed to end. It’ll be a chapter in history books for decades to come. The ultimate shooting of own foot.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Genie

[Seat68]

They voted for the potential carrot in a box