wazzap24 Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 2 hours ago, Xela said: I'm still calling fake as I can't see any Madeleine McCann pictures The migrants took her. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chindie Posted June 18, 2016 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted June 18, 2016 I was linked to this the other day by a friend. It's a short lecture by a professor of EU and constitutional law from Liverpool University. He's been an consultant to the BBC on EU law in the referendum and has also advised the government on EU law. He had remained independent in the debate and referendum run up but felt he needed to enter the debate as he was tired of the misleading information that has been put out by the media on both sides. Given his background its not a surprise he focuses on legal basis for things but it's very enlightening. He also bins the sovereignty argument (again). It's worth a watch, certainly if you're undecided and arguably everyone should watch it - you may not understand quite how enormous this subject is, a single point raised in the video is the sheer enormity of the task of untangling UK law from EU law given we've spent the last 40 years enacting legislation that has been influenced by the EU, which we'd need to do very fast so won't be able to go through the normal legislative procedure. He breaks things down into very simple ideas so don't be daunted by it. You absolutely should spend 20 mins watching this. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 Thank you for that Chindie. I've shared it on social media. Perhaps I'm an elitist swine, I'm getting upset that people are going to be voting in this referendum without knowing what they are voting for. I'm not saying that if you vote remain you are stupid. But I see this sort of thing a lot: 'I want my country back...' What absolute nonsense. I will be gutted if we leave the EU based on daft immigration or sovereignty issues. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbauer24 Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 No one on either side of the campaign will admit the truth; that some things will be better and some things will be worse which ever way you vote. It's always all good or all bad. I'd listen to politicians far more if they admitted that x and y would be slightly worse but that it's worth it for this or that. The reason large proportions of people struggle to come up with a strong view is both sides refuse to admit disadvantages and it will all only be better which is so obviously cr*p that you can't believe anything they say. Furthermore, even the same information is interpreted as good or bad depending which side of the argument they are making! And are 'scare stories' from either side just a way of dismissing a fact from the other camp? I definitely couldn't say with any confidence which way anyone should vote, or that the way I'll vote is correct. However, when you have a team of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Nigel Farage on one side it compelling points to stupidity (BJ), incompetence (MG) and racism (NF) in one camp. So even if I shouldn't be basing it on personalities, it's all I've really got to go on so I'll be voting REMAIN. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted June 18, 2016 Share Posted June 18, 2016 I've found this site very useful in scuritnising all the data and studies out there on the EU debate. In my opinion, this in the best source of 'fact' or best estimates surrounding this debate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Based on my Facebook feed (which includes a number of media outlets so a decent sized sample), remain supporters have far superior spelling and grammar. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROTTERDAM1982 Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Personalities are irrelevant JB24, you vote for the future.For me the EU is heading for disaster, and i think we will be better out of it now before it implodes. Look at the way the EU treats the Greeks, whatever the faults of Greece, wherever the blame lies, the way the people are being by the club that is the EU, is no club i wish to be a member of.The Professor above is a very relevant discussion, but to me it shows how much power the EU has taken away from national governments, in essence neutering national parliaments.It will be a difficult 6 to 12 months period, but i believe long term we will be better away from the EU, as i said earlier, it is heading to disaster. The Italians will be next to default on their loans, then the shit will hit the fan, Europe will be in economic freefall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted June 19, 2016 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2016 He scares me. Mostly because there are people that seem to take him seriously. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Unfortunately, despite there being valid reasons to vote out, a definitive leave vote will represent a coup by the far right. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 (edited) VT's Lefties follow Daily Mail's advice on Brexit: Will they ever live it down? Edited June 19, 2016 by MakemineVanilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted June 19, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted June 19, 2016 6 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: VT's Lefties follow Daily Mail's advice on Brexit: Will they ever live it down? Spoof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted June 19, 2016 Author Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2016 23 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: VT's Lefties follow Daily Mail's advice on Brexit: Will they ever live it down? That's not the Daily Mail, it's the Sunday version - They've done the same as the Times/Sunday Times - Times says stay, Sunday Times says Leave. Daily Mail says Leave, Sunday Mail says stay. Funny, that. What with it being tight an' all - those kind of Newspaper groups hate to be seen to be on the wrong side of an argument, so some bet hedging goes on, some leverage for them to use with Politicians in due course.... To be fair as well, the Times/Sunday Times isn't used by Murdoch in the same way he uses the Sun. Maybe due to the nature of the readerships. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 Can see why Cameron has ducked any attempt at a face to face debate, seeing him attempt to waffle his way through any questions on immigration is incredibly uncomfortable viewing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Chindie Posted June 19, 2016 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted June 19, 2016 He can't win any question based on immigration. Anything he says is either an own goal, or is going to piss off a significant element of the population. The Leave campaign knows it as well, hence why it's an absolute cornerstone of their campaign. Hence the waffle. Fudge through it and get on to the next thing we're he can win. I don't envy him having to try to defend something that many people simply will not accept. Unfortunately he has to. Free movement is part of the EU package. It's part of the EU package even if you're not a member, if you want to access the single market. You can't pick and choose it. He can't really be that straight with it though, it makes the EU sound despotic (you must have this is you want that), it makes it difficult to criticise immigration in the same breath and makes it sound like he supports immigration by proxy at least. Immigration is a poisonous word for Remain. Leave has muddied things and built on a feeling in the UK that all immigration is the same. It isn't, of course, but a great deal of the populace doesn't acknowledge that there's a difference between a German coming here to work in the City in London, a Syrian refugee, an Afghani illegal migrant and an Indian chef. They are one and the same. There's millions of scroungers barring at Dover and France and the EU is actively funneling them here. And Remain can't tackle that. They can't say anything to make distinction clear because the discourse is entirely established. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 I'm still undecided and the video above just made me further question experts. Not at any point did he mention small and medium business (SMEs) or the local economy and that should be 'the job of someone like' him. Cheers for posting though, I learnt one or two things. I've also watched heard/seen interviews with trade deal negotiators and they feel 2-5 years is the minimum to get an outline. 7-10 for a full agreement. My main concern is how SMEs have been impacted by the EU regulation and framework. They are our majority employers/trainers. SME milk producers for example have halved in the EU and nations like Poland and Hungary who did not take the Euro are now pushing national industry in spite of EU warnings/regulation. There was an interesting radio 4 programme about Greenland leaving the EU. It made me think we don't do enough to support British business, but it's also interesting that they now want back in. We of course could probably find better ways to better support British business, like they do in Italy and France, but we don't and I fear we never will if we're in the EU. It's just such a shame that this conversation has barely mentioned the local economy and concentrated on immigration. We need the local economy conversation in the UK as much as we need it in Europe. The whole 'debate' has been an embarrassment. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danwichmann Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 4 minutes ago, itdoesntmatterwhatthissay said: I'm still undecided and the video above just made me further question experts. Not at any point did he mention small and medium business (SMEs) or the local economy and that should be 'the job of someone like' him. Cheers for posting though, I learnt one or two things. I've also watched heard/seen interviews with trade deal negotiators and they feel 2-5 years is the minimum to get an outline. 7-10 for a full agreement. My main concern is how SMEs have been impacted by the EU regulation and framework. They are our majority employers/trainers. SME milk producers for example have halved in the EU and nations like Poland and Hungary who did not take the Euro are now pushing national industry in spite of EU warnings/regulation. There was an interesting radio 4 programme about Greenland leaving the EU. It made me think we don't do enough to support British business, but it's also interesting that they now want back in. We of course could probably find better ways to better support British business, like they do in Italy and France, but we don't and I fear we never will if we're in the EU. It's just such a shame that this conversation has barely mentioned the local economy and concentrated on immigration. We need the local economy conversation in the UK as much as we need it in Europe. The whole 'debate' has been an embarrassment. SME's are too diverse to say it's universally good or bad. For the many that export, import or do business in Europe, full access to the single market and the alignment of product standards and removal of non-tariff barriers is hugely beneficial. There is also a wider pool of potential employees and access to the skills and workforce needed for business. The negative side for most would probably be workers rights such as maximum working weeks. For me, that is much needed protection for employees, but doubtless many employers would like to get rid of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danwichmann Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 2 hours ago, Chindie said: Free movement is part of the EU package. It's part of the EU package even if you're not a member, if you want to access the single market. You can't pick and choose it. 1 All the non-EU countries that are part of the EFTA not only have to accept freedom of movement but have also had to become part of the Schengen Area. If that were extended to a post-Brexit Britain, then we would genuinely lose control of borders. At the moment, despite what the newspapers love to tell us, we have full control of our borders. Sadly, the press, and therefore most of the country, fail to grasp that free movement of workers and the Schengen Area are two completely different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 From my understanding they aren't two seperate things at all, closely inter-linked at the very least. Although I'm happy to be educated on the matter. Schengen is simply passport free travel between the countries, which imo anyway wouldn't make much logical sense for us being an Island nation. The fact we check passports is literally the only difference, we can't stop EU nationals coming in, to say we have full control of our borders is a complete falsehood. As someone mentioned on QT earlier there is a huge discrimination between unskilled EU workers and skilled workers from outside the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itdoesntmatterwhatthissay Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 28 minutes ago, Danwichmann said: SME's are too diverse to say it's universally good or bad. For the many that export, import or do business in Europe, full access to the single market and the alignment of product standards and removal of non-tariff barriers is hugely beneficial. There is also a wider pool of potential employees and access to the skills and workforce needed for business. The negative side for most would probably be workers rights such as maximum working weeks. For me, that is much needed protection for employees, but doubtless many employers would like to get rid of it. Having completed a poll for a trade federation and spoken with others, many have a brexit majority. Regulation and market access is generally cited as the reason. The general rule was 'we want out' but 'out is bad for the national economy'. SME exports to the EU are fairly well spread across all industries, and exporting SMEs use Europe more than non-EU markets. Is our domestic market strong enough to support any losses? On average (export/import surplus) our SMEs do much better exporting to non-EU markets, by the amount of £285k. Though stats, stats, stats, eh. They can prove anything! That's why I want someone from remain to come out and say, 'Because of CAP subsidies we propose getting new farmers into the market like this' 'Because EU frameworks support transient employment we can impose these regulations to assist local and regional businesses' 'Because our EU funded energy projects have failed and new EU contracts are aimed at large companies we propose a UK industrial strategy funded by' The list goes on. And that's what really frustrates me, nobody is willing to dig deep and the majority of remainers have as little clue about reform as brexiters have about leaving. At least I feel the brexiters have had the conversation even if many answers have been largely worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danwichmann Posted June 19, 2016 Share Posted June 19, 2016 30 minutes ago, penguin said: From my understanding they aren't two seperate things at all, closely inter-linked at the very least. Although I'm happy to be educated on the matter. Schengen is simply passport free travel between the countries, which imo anyway wouldn't make much logical sense for us being an Island nation. The fact we check passports is literally the only difference, we can't stop EU nationals coming in, to say we have full control of our borders is a complete falsehood. As someone mentioned on QT earlier there is a huge discrimination between unskilled EU workers and skilled workers from outside the EU. Schengen is a little more than passport-free travel, it is the complete removal of border controls. As I'm sure you're aware, this means anyone in, for instance, France right now can move into Germany, Spain etc without passing through a border control. This applies whether they are an EU citizen or not, criminal or not, carrying illegal goods or not. Countries within the Schengen Area have given up control of their internal borders (although it must be recognised that they have strengthened their external borders). The UK has control of its borders, as you must pass through passport control to enter. There, non-EU citizens can be identified, we can know who is in and out of the country, and security checks on goods / luggage are carried out. That is control of the border. We have given up control over the number of people from the EU who can enter the country, but that is not the same as giving up control of our borders. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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