blandy

Should I stay or should I go now - U.K. in/out of the EU (contd.)

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20 minutes ago, bickster said:

Who cares really. They aren't the point

Yes, they are. He's not going to win a VONC next week if he just randomly tears his caucus in half this week. 

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3 minutes ago, bickster said:

I don't understand why anyone would actually believe that. The whole point is that we had a vote to start the process, then you have a vote to make sure the outcome of the process is what is desired. What's the rationale behind a third vote apart from  the logic of a six year old in the playground who just lost a game of jumpers for goalposts

really  ..

we had a vote to start the process and the outcome desired was to leave the EU   ... I'm not advocating telling remainers "you lost , deal with it "  but a second question  phased "How shall we **** off ,O Lord"  ... would be a stronger argument than oh you didn't understand the question now vote again because now we've watched that CH4 show with that lovely actor man we know now how to run / rig an election so we can win

 

 

 

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Just now, HanoiVillan said:

Yes, they are. He's not going to win a VONC next week if he just randomly tears his caucus in half this week. 

You really think Labour MPs of any hue of Brexit are going to vote with the Govt in a VONC, I think they'd be ending their careers

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19 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

You could have made the same argument in the last election that 16 million remainers would potentially vote for Lib Dems but they didn't.

I am sure there would be an uprising of UKIP or equivalent if there was another referendum and the vote was to remain and I think it has made some people very tribalistic about it and they would want out no matter what the consequences as they have become that blinkered.  

There have always been plenty of anti EU people in this country but I guess when they go to mark their X in a general election they look at wider issues otherwise UKIP would have had a number of MP's years ago.

 the Lib Dems also sold their soul to Satan  I think it will be a while before a lot of people vote for them again .. plus they had a leader who is a vegetarian so nobody was going to trust him :)

UKIP did get a better showing in council / Euro elections (for a while) it could come down to low turnout in those election  , tribal voting in General elections , could just come down to people not going against the norm and voting for the usual 2 ..

it should be noted they did achieve 12% in the GE , in 2015 , more than double the number of votes the SNP achieved (obviously not comparable as votes ) , but representation wise they had 2 MP's v 56 for the Monster raving Jock party .

  Carswell did mange to become a UKIP MP and he was essentially just a Tory in a purple tie  ... potentially next time around you'll have a 100 Carswell's in a purple tie ?

Edited by tonyh29

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35 minutes ago, blandy said:

Before the first one, various Leavers, Farage, Mogg, Johnson were proposing a first ref to Leave or Not then a second to vote on whether the "deal" /decision was  right once we knew the detail. Kind of like "Holiday or stay at home" OK, you voted Holiday, and we're going to a 1 star hotel in Baghdad for 2 weeks at 4 grand a head. Do you still want the holiday? Yes or no?

So I don't think it automatically goes to a "best of 3 type thing".

I do get that it won't make the issue go way, and this is another area where almost all parties have failed. Because they've concentrated on leaving to the exclusion of all else, pretty much, the "reasons" for leave have not been explored. It's just been reduced to whoever claiming "immigration" or "sovereignty" or "money" or whatever being claimed as "that's what people voted for" - but no one knows, and there were surely multiple different reasons. Address them, and the situation changes again.

I thought that was Goldsmiths plan (referendum party , rather than UKIP)  , a referendum on the terms of the relationship  , rather than a straight  in / Out ?

  but leaves "roadmap" in the election campaign was about leaving I don't recall talk of a second vote on the deal ( that's just my memory of events rather than saying it wasn't the case , tbh I don't think I'd even given it much notice until the actual referendum was called )

 

Edited by tonyh29

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27 minutes ago, bickster said:

You really think Labour MPs of any hue of Brexit are going to vote with the Govt in a VONC, I think they'd be ending their careers

Yes, of course I think they could . I also think they could abstain, which given the maths involved would be equally fatal. 

Were you and I not discussing the possibility of Tories voting against the government earlier? It would be a big step for a politician to vote against the party in a VONC, but lots of politicians think Brexit is Really Important. They may be prepared to end their careers over it. 

Anyway, if you don't think that anyone will or could vote outside of party lines in a VONC, then I don't know why you're wasting anger on Labour, because the logical consequence of that belief is that nothing they do or say or believe can make any difference to the Brexit process at all. So it's hard to see why someone who thought that would be MORE annoyed at Corbyn than at May. 

Edited by HanoiVillan

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Decent thread. Goes into the madness of the idea there's huge markets for the UK just waiting to be mined as well.

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42 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

really  ..

we had a vote to start the process and the outcome desired was to leave the EU   ... I'm not advocating telling remainers "you lost , deal with it "  but a second question  phased "How shall we **** off ,O Lord"  ... would be a stronger argument than oh you didn't understand the question now vote again because now we've watched that CH4 show with that lovely actor man we know now how to run / rig an election so we can win

 

 

 

Any second vote would need to have remain on the ballot in case the electorate has changed its mind following all this additional information it has recieved since the first vote. 

The reason your ‘best of three’ argument is too simplistic is because it is not about two fixed teams fighting for victory. It’s about understanding what the population actually want. 

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6 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

Any second vote would need to have remain on the ballot in case the electorate has changed its mind following all this additional information it has recieved since the first vote. 

The reason your ‘best of three’ argument is too simplistic is because it is not about two fixed teams fighting for victory. It’s about understanding what the population actually want. 

I thought the argument since 2016 has been that we couldn’t trust the public

I get what your saying about my argument , I was just trying to keep it simplistic so remainers could  understand it :) it was more about i just can’t see how it can “end” like that after a second vote 

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3 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

I don't think the JLR Factory in Slovakia had much, if anything, to do with Brexit to be honest. It certainly wasn't mentioned internally as anything other than a cost saving activity. Maybe a potential referendum was involved in the thought process but I don't think it was a major contributor.

 

It's certainly more of a factor in the announced job cuts though.

The factory is ready, it’s been being built for years and conceived years before that. No way it’s creation is linked to Brexit. All the major car manufacturers have assembly plants in Eastern Europe.

No manufacturing job cuts as far as I am aware so factory not pulling jobs out of the UK (yet).

No compulsory job losses either, the terms for VR are very good indeed. If you’re north of 60 and have a few years service today is like winning the lottery.

Edited by Genie
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10 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I thought the argument since 2016 has been that we couldn’t trust the public

I get what your saying about my argument , I was just trying to keep it simplistic so remainers could  understand it :) it was more about i just can’t see how it can “end” like that after a second vote 

Both of those points are valid. 

The thing is though in a theoretical scenario where the ‘will of the people’ has shifted to remain following two years of discussions on the reality of brexit it would be perverse to follow through against the electorate’s wishes, particularity if it is an option that causes significant harm. 

However the only way remain could become a legitimate option in that scenario is if it came about by the same mechanism that resulted in brexit in the first place. 

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1 hour ago, wazzap24 said:

I just want an opposition I can believe in and one that supports the majority of its voter's views, not just the majority of it's membership. 

newsnight_ptymembers3.png

There is something called 

ESRC PARTY MEMBERS PROJECT (PMP)

it studies party membership in the six largest British parties and says this of it's own work:

Quote

The media and the public can benefit from this research because it will allow them to rely on hard data rather than hearsay and possibly outworn or simply mistaken assumptions about parties and their members

It's current data on Labour membership suggests 87% of them would vote remain.

However, as stated again this morning by some Labour MP on R4 this morning, their policy is to leave and will stay leave until and unless a new Labour Conference decides otherwise. 

Anybody (not you, nobody specific) that thinks Labour's currently leadership has a secret plan to remain is deluded. 

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13 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

The Sun. What nonsense 

6CD75B39-DAFE-4CF1-8B42-63C9D5D79F0F.jpeg

I agree. What complete load of bollocks.

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Not just a lie, but a particularly obvious one, told as usual in the Scum's standard 'there there, don't worry your heads about the details, just remember you're the embodiment of Britain' patronising tone. 

As usual, nobody thinks less of Scum readers than their editorial team. 

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7 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

The Sun. What nonsense 

6CD75B39-DAFE-4CF1-8B42-63C9D5D79F0F.jpeg

I'm not sure it is nonsense.  I'd have thought people would have assumed it meant not being subject to any EU rules.  I doubt whether all that many could have explained the stuff about customs unions, what it meant for the practical implications of trade and all the rest, but the idea that they thought it meant a clean break is a reasonable suggestion.

A more relevant question would be whether people understand and now wish for such an exit, now that some of the likely practical outcomes have been explained.  That is a different matter.

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5 minutes ago, peterms said:

I'm not sure it is nonsense.  I'd have thought people would have assumed it meant not being subject to any EU rules.  I doubt whether all that many could have explained the stuff about customs unions, what it meant for the practical implications of trade and all the rest, but the idea that they thought it meant a clean break is a reasonable suggestion.

A more relevant question would be whether people understand and now wish for such an exit, now that some of the likely practical outcomes have been explained.  That is a different matter.

My "Nonsense" comment was more aimed at him seemingly blaming remainers for the "small-print". Presumably he's referring to people pointing out that leaving with no deal is a **** disaster and al the consequences it has.

In effect he's blaming remainers for pointing out the lies we were told by leave campaigns, as opposed to blaming the people who told the lies.

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Worcester News 'letter of the day':

Quote

SIR – Listening to Worcester radio I heard a member of parliament state that we should strive to teach people morals when voicing an opinion – I laugh.

Why morals in this area as England on a whole have no morals whatsoever.

The TV shows are full of porn, no one on the TV or radio appear to have any knowledge of the English language, swear words seem to form most of the dialogues, comedians only appear to be able to make people laugh when being offensive.

Having recently returned to this country I feel ashamed to be British, I ask has it been the closeness of the Euro market that this has been brought about? If so, roll on Brexit.

What has happened to a country that was once a proud leader in the world? As I weep for the loss of the “Great” in Britain, I hang my head in shame to be English.

Mrs P Stewart

Norton

:o

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