tonyh29 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 1 minute ago, mjmooney said: Love it. If he sticks to his own views, he's out of touch and undemocratic. If he goes with a wider party line, he's weak and unprincipled. I see I'm going to need more neon ink but if we can have fun over Cameron and events with pigs that have never been proven I'm fairly sure we can have fun over Corbyn and his beliefs list with big lines drawn through it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 The EU invites a lot of questions. Is it democratic? It is often described as having a 'democratic deficit'. Of the seven MEPs who serve the West Midlands, not one bothers to explain what they have achieved. If they have no need to seek my approval, they can't be accountable. The Irish rejected the Lisbon Treaty and they were browbeaten into accepting it. Every time an EU treaty is halted by a referendum, the question is just rephrased and it is claimed concessions have been granted. They have as many referendums as it takes. The erosion of UK citizens' legal rights have gone unchecked in the UK over the period of EU membership, and state control and surveillance have increased. Is the EU corrupt? Yes. The European Commission itself described its own estimate of £99bn as 'breathtaking'. Is the EU any kind of socialist buttress against inequality? No! Membership of the EU has not prevented the UK (13.8*) and Portugal (15*) being two of the most economically unequal first world countries on the planet, just behind the USA (15.9*). * ratio of the average income of the top 10% to the poorest. Open-door immigration has held back the wages of the lowest paid and the abundance of cheap labour has enabled zero-hours working. Oppressive labour laws have left low status workers isolated and powerless. Is the EU any kind of buttress against war? No! The UK's involvement in wars in Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq, say not. Germany's involvement in fomenting war in the Ukraine is well known. The scare tactics used in the Brexit debate reveal that it is just thinly disguised lobbying from competing vested capital interests (cronies versus the tax-payers). Issues about sovereignty are only the concern of those groups favoured by the various UK parties. Issues of payments to the EU are only the concern of those who expect to have the money returned to them in tax-breaks. Not belonging to either group I have no dog in the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post chrisp65 Posted February 17, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted February 17, 2016 The EU is far from perfect. The problem is, the UK government and it's care of the regions is / was also far from perfect. For many years I watched my local area hit a state of permanent deliberate decline. From coal, to steel, docking at ports from Newport, Cardiff, Barry, Swansea, Haverfordwest. Even local agriculture. For whatever reason, it was decided this region was a lost cause and perhaps the best thing was for people to 'move on'. Literally on their bikes as far as some were concerned. or figuratively in the hope that a.n.other would set up 'something' for the children of Merthyr to slot right in to. Government of all hues, based in London, chose to spend no money in this area. Then a few years ago they swerved the problem by setting up a local tier of government, gave it limited powers and limited budgets (both still set by London) and said get on with it. No coincidence that Westminster is determined to get a similar tier in place for the north east? The only money I see being invested in Swansea, in Port Talbot, in Merthyr and Barry and Newport and all those towns where one and a half million people live, the only money I see in these places, comes from Europe. My guess is that there would be similar stories in the north east and the south west. A net investment in to the area of around five hundred million pound a year. Every year. I guess, if we vote to leave the EU, the money Westminster saves on EU membership will be directed in to replacing the EU regional funding that's been building University research facilities, barrages, infrastructure and high tech manufacturing? Will it ****. If there is any net monetary benefit you can rest assured it will be spent giving rich people in the South East of England an extra tax break to encourage trickle down. I guess that if we vote to stay in the EU, the long term price of some shiny buildings and a third lane of M4 will be a gradual erosion of rights, of democracy and the decision making suits being even further away than when they sat in London and thus appearing even less accountable with their patently corrupt european 'closed list' voting system. But lets not discuss university research investment, infrastructure, TTIP, accountability and closed list voting. Let's make this about Romanians stealing 2.5% our child benefits budget. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) 28 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Let's make this about Romanians stealing 2.5% our child benefits budget it's a shame VT lost its yawn icon but have an amusing jpg instead if you're not going to bother reading what's being said just tell us and then I can save my time and go to another thread and have stimulating conversations about bands and rappers I've never heard of Edited February 17, 2016 by tonyh29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 23 hours ago, blandy said: I'm like Chris - minded to say "stay in", but I have no enthusiasm for either "cause". I hate TTIP and some of the things OBE mentions. TTIP is almost enough on its own to make me want to leave. But then I see that Cameron is even more keen on TTIP than anyone else in yurp. And that kind of concern applies to loads of other stuff - Workers rights, environmental protection - that kind of stuff, where my views are much more in line with Yurp than Cameron and the tories. I think because of yurp I'm better off in many ways than I would have been without it. Another reason to stay. Also I'm pretty sure that if we "split up" with the rest of EU, then there would be a bit of sulking and retaliation go on. Maybe not the really big things, because like Tony says, no one wants to cut their nose off to spite their face, but where the EU nations could get little digs and little acts of "serves 'em right" in, then they would. Manufactured "health scares" about British produce, leading to embargo, or bits of regulation that would means our goods or services became "temporarily unallowable", until we changed the spec. that kind of thing. It's human nature. Also, basically almost all the people on the Out campaign are mad as a box of frogs - Farage, Liam Fox, IDS, Redwood, and so on. I really don't want those twunts calling the tune. Finally, I think Cameron is a massive arse and has been doing all this for his won reasons - the stuff he's negotiating is largely unimportant - nothing on Common Agricultural Policy (which is a massive further flaw of the EU) - he's concentrating on Tory trigger things. Finally finally, if Cameron, in the EU, as he is now, can't get a "good deal" what chance has he or his successor got of a "good deal" in terms of "when we leave this will be the way it'll work" deal? Reluctant stay. thanks for typing it so I didn't have to 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 3 hours ago, tonyh29 said: eyes on the ball not the player My eyes were on the ball, i.e. what was being posted. Don't try and suggest that they weren't. It really doesn't matter whether it's something that Cameron and others are wasting their time discussing as part of his little 'deal'. It is a minor, pointless distraction (as are many of the things he's discussing as part of his deal) and as such it's ideal for a radio 5 phone in (with apologies to Danny Baker's programme on saturday mornings). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 25 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: it's a shame VT lost its yawn icon but have an amusing jpg instead if you're not going to bother reading what's being said just tell us and then I can save my time and go to another thread and have stimulating conversations about bands and rappers I've never heard of I wasn't referencing you there Tony, or your bendy banana, I was just generally monologuing. If I wasn't to ignore or misread other people's points and only write worthy and relevant new comments I'd have finished 9,850 posts ago. But nothing can get me down today, I bought posh chocolate tea cakes and big bags of posh crisps on expenses for a meeting and the meeting just got cancelled. Win win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 these bad boys , or did you go full posh mode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 full posh Hand made organic fair trade biodegradable freedom tea cakes from the up itself yummy mummy Deli up the road that Cerys Matthews and James Dean Bradfield et al use. Yes you do know who they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: full posh Hand made organic fair trade biodegradable freedom tea cakes from the up itself yummy mummy Deli up the road that Cerys Matthews and James Dean Bradfield et al use. Yes you do know who they are. something like this 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 More like this tortoise sized behemoth. But not that actual one, that's a library photo of a Costa Coffee tea cake. I like to buy utterly impractical food as meeting snacks. It's going to prove difficult to take a photo of the ones that I bought.....I put them in the kitchen with a hand made sign that said 'free!'. The Polish living wage cad monkeys now love me like a god. They won't be getting that sort of treat if we vote leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) 29 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: full posh Hand made organic fair trade biodegradable freedom tea cakes from the up itself yummy mummy Deli up the road that Cerys Matthews and James Dean Bradfield et al use. Yes you do know who they are. I thought he was great in East of Eden regarding JDB though , a man who clearly knows his stuff the Manic Street Preachers frontman talks Emily Mackay through his all-time favourite albums Edited February 17, 2016 by tonyh29 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 13 hours ago, Nabby said: Funny thing is those eastern european countries arnt so welcoming when it comes to immigrantion coming to thier country. Easy to get a job here and big companies are moving to Eastern Europe so they actively want foreigners for the economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 10 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Easy to get a job here and big companies are moving to Eastern Europe so they actively want foreigners for the economy. I don't think Love stuck youths was who he was referring to .. I took it to be a reference to the immigrants coming through barb wire fences on the long march to freedom Germany Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabby Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Easy to get a job here and big companies are moving to Eastern Europe so they actively want foreigners for the economy. Seems often overlooked in the migration to uk argument that plenty of work has flowed out of UK to eastern Europe. Worked in logistics 10 years ago we where all laid off as work moved to poland , my father worked in car manufacturing his work was sent to Czech Republic In my current role I work in IT in London for huge company 500k plus employees and they have moved all non customer facing IT functions to Poland , even staff in Glasgow hardly a high salary location where all culled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted February 17, 2016 VT Supporter Share Posted February 17, 2016 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: full posh Hand made organic fair trade biodegradable freedom tea cakes from the up itself yummy mummy Deli up the road that Cerys Matthews and James Dean Bradfield et al use. Yes you do know who they are. There's lovely... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted February 17, 2016 Administrator Share Posted February 17, 2016 5 hours ago, tonyh29 said: it's a shame VT lost its yawn icon but have an amusing jpg instead If anyone had reported this I'd have fixed it. No-one did so I can't be bothered now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, limpid said: If anyone had reported this I'd have fixed it. No-one did so I can't be bothered now. tbh I just assumed it had been removed by design .. much as it was the ultimate weapon for a putdown after being the brunt of a both barrels rant ..it was also bloody irritating when you were on the receiving end of one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted February 17, 2016 Administrator Share Posted February 17, 2016 @tonyh29 I asked that people reported anything that was missing or broken when we moved to the new site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendelc Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 24 - 17 . I am honestly surprised at how close the poll is on here . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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