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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?


Genie
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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?  

82 members have voted

  1. 1. As the title suggests. I guess the 2 sides of the debate will get lots of airtime over the next few weeks. What do the people of VT think?

    • Remain a member of the European Union
      46
    • Leave the European Union
      36


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I'm in the No camp too.

My main reason is to remain in control of the borders. This does not mean I want close the borders and foreigners are bad! It means we should retain complete control of who comes and when. Its a fundemental for me and something we should never have to concede on.

For business / trading, we'll find a way of managing and trading with Europe.

 

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3 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said:

 

I hears that Brussels intend to curb the use of children to deliver our newspapers and therefore we should leave the EU.

And they put mayonnaise on their chips over there, but their chips arnt really chips they are French fries. And you can't trust the French. Stands to reason, we've been fighting them for centuries. And don't get me started on the Germans. Spending our money on immigrants and trams in Dublin.

And the Poles and Lithuanians. They took our jobs. I'd happily work in the mushroom packing factory but I cant get in the door because I don't speak Czech.

And those damn there human rights nonsense trying to get in the way of deporting Muslims and that.

So all in all, is think we should stay in the EU. I got 'oliday home in Costa Del Sol see.

I was hoping this thread would not decend into such a childish debate...

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I think it's becoming increasingly difficult to get to any kind of fact based info that hasn't been spun into some pro/anti argument. 

Much like the general election, the public will have to decide which set of lies they choose to believe. 

 

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1 minute ago, PompeyVillan said:

A political discussion that doesn't descend into childish, polarised nonsense?

It is possible if people try. That's why I added the poll to try and keep it as simple as possible.

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be prepared for lots of "little Englander" comments  :) 

(edit : I see it's already begun whilst I was writing my response , I like a flippant comment or three myself , but the EU in / Out does need a proper discussion at some point where the bendy bananas rule gets left outside )

 

It isn't a quick answer , but I've tried to give one so apologies if what I'm saying doesn't appear to make sense , i'll get back with more detail though if anyone wants to counter my brief (and possibly flawed points)

I voted leave  , Europe isn't out of the woods yet and every indication is that it could still go down the toilet ( actually us leaving could be the finally spark that causes it to burn ) , but I think we are better equipped to avoid the resulting carnage if we are out of it .. arguably our economy has recovered and come out the recession stronger than the EU states , partly I suspect as we have our own currency and aren't hampered by the Euro when it comes to setting economic policy

You'll hear various arguments about jobs and tariffs but I for one don't believe that the German car market (for example) is going to turn it's back on what is one of it's biggest markets  .. ditto other industry's that import to the UK  , there are other countries not in the EU who are trading perfectly well from outside so it already shows it can be done

 

Immigration control - your going to hear a lot of scaremongering on this subject but I think beyond the screeching the argument is that our info structure can't cope with the influxes of people ... be it schools , be it the NHS (again its subjective but from some sources it appears that the NHS was kinda improving  , however it wasn't equipped to deal with the extra pressure that immigration put on the system ,) , be it welfare ( one of the current things I learnt is that someone from the EU comes to work in the UK and leaves their children in their home country .. the are entitled to claim child benefit from the UK for these children .... I'm sure there are reciprocal agreements in place but even so that has to be a flaw in the EU system surely ? though it's one that Cameron is trying to peg to the standard of living in the country of origin ...

I suspect Immigration will come down to being the major decision maker in the IN/Out vote .. it shouldn't be , but I think ultimately your Facebook "share if you like" mentality aren't clever enough to grasp any economic arguments , a picture of an ISIS flag or a Muslim wanting to impose Sharia law on us all scare story will be enough to get their X in the leave box

that's enough to start with  as a anecdote one thing that I do find  kinda amusing is that with my wife being Hungarian we have a lot of Hungarian friends who all live here in the UK , indeed all have British passports through marriage  ... When it's come up in conversation , they all say they think we should leave the EU and they will vote that way .. and mainly they cite immigration as the reason  ..go figure  :unsure:

 

 

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I haven't voted yet.

I'm waiting to see how the 500,000 Irish passport holders resident in the UK that are eligible to vote in the referendum, how they vote. or indeed, the 7,000 Poles that are eligible to vote...

I also want to know, once we have control of our borders, what exactly that will mean. I guess it must mean a return to actual passport checks at the Irish border? Or are we just concerned about the Calais jungle?

I'm a spectacularly intelligent person, I can't tell if I would be better off financially in, or out. I suspect that due to where I live my hometown is better off 'in' as when London was solely in charge of our affairs they attempted to close us down as a region.

So I'm a big fat don't know, with a leaning to wanting to remain in a reformed europe.

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In principle I like the idea of the EU, but I don't like this EU; and therein lies the rub. From a socialist perspective, a European Union of peoples is something that would seem a good idea. That's not what we've got. We've got a corporate lobby group that pushes the interests of the banking system through Europe and manipulates public money to private concern. 

Oddly, those at the other end of the spectrum disagree with the principles of the EU too, because despite its structure, there is still some sort of social principle within it; those on the left dislike the wolf, those on the right dislike the sheep's clothing. 

I think in principle I'd like to vote yes to stay in an EU that was the EU I'd like it to be. Of course that's an impossible dream.

The problem is that a No vote means a Yes vote to even more power to a government that makes me angry pretty much every time I'm aware they exist.

A Yes to this EU is a yes to rampant corporatism over public interest, it's a yes to a furthering of the abundance of the super-rich and a yes to eroded public services and consumer rights.

A No to the EU is a yes to rampant corporatism over public interest, it's a yes to a furthering of the abundance of the super-rich and a yes to eroded public services and consumer rights.

In terms of the choice between whether I want a Union Jack wrapped around a stick and rammed up my arse or a Blue and Yellow flag wrapped around a stick and rammed up my arse, I've got to say I'm not overly keen on either.

I think I'd vote No to staying in the political EU. I'd like to vote No to staying in the political UK too if it were at all possible.

 

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30 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I guess it must mean a return to actual passport checks at the Irish border? Or are we just concerned about the Calais jungle?

presumably these people would have needed a passport to get to Ireland in the first place , unless Ireland has an open border for Syrian refugees ?

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It's impossible to have a fair debate on this subject which is why the referendum will be farcical. Arguably already is with the cat fight between the leave groups.

I don't think the EU is perfect, by any means. It's a mess of an organisation that has largely come together by making things up as it went along, and it's never had any solid structural plan, and it lurches from one path to another as different issues arise and different voices gain volume. It suffers enormously from a democratic deficit, which it's never overcome. And so on.

But... It makes trading easier. It makes life a little more simple if you travel much in the locality of the European Peninsula, for business or pleasure. It's put all of Europe in each others pockets so we think a little harder before we try to destroy each other again. It's given each state a louder voice in an increasingly globalised world, which in turn has given each state a slice of the pie of an economic superpower. It empowers the big players by making it easier to sell to new markets and benefit from those markets people. Etc etc etc. Basically it's a money making machine at it's heart designed to make everyone involved have a heavier wallet.

The problem is the benefits are fairly intangible to the average bloke (as are some of the negatives), and he gets the obvious side effects he doesn't like hurled at him constantly. To talk with any real understanding of the EU, how it actually works, what it actually is, what it's structures are, what it actually does, takes a considerable effort to bother with, and frankly it's all so dull I can't blame anyone for not bothering. But without that you can't really have a proper debate about it, on either side.

I pity whoever has to come up with the Stay In side of things because they're going to spend months smacking their head against idiots ranting about the latest 'uman rights story on the front of the Heil, or the latest rhetoric from the sun about swarms of immigrants eating our crops...

Edited by Chindie
Pedantry
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I'm like Chris - minded to say "stay in", but I have no enthusiasm for either "cause".

I hate TTIP and some of the things OBE mentions. TTIP is almost enough on its own to make me want to leave. But then I see that Cameron is even more keen on TTIP than anyone else in yurp. And that kind of concern applies to loads of other stuff - Workers rights, environmental protection  - that kind of stuff, where my views are much more in line with Yurp than Cameron and the tories.

I think because of yurp I'm better off in many ways than I would have been without it. Another reason to stay.

Also I'm pretty sure that if we "split up" with the rest of EU, then there would be a bit of sulking and retaliation go on. Maybe not the really big things, because like Tony says, no one wants to cut their nose off to spite their face, but where the EU nations could get little digs and little acts of "serves 'em right" in, then they would. Manufactured "health scares" about British produce, leading to embargo, or bits of regulation that would means our goods or services became "temporarily unallowable", until we changed the spec. that kind of thing. It's human nature.

Also, basically almost all the people on the Out campaign are mad as a box of frogs - Farage, Liam Fox, IDS, Redwood, and so on. I really don't want those twunts calling the tune.

 

Finally, I think Cameron is a massive arse and has been doing all this for his won reasons - the stuff he's negotiating is largely unimportant - nothing on Common Agricultural Policy (which is a massive further flaw of the EU) - he's concentrating on Tory trigger things.

Finally finally, if Cameron, in the EU, as he is now, can't get a "good deal" what chance has he or his successor got of a "good deal" in terms of "when we leave this will be the way it'll work" deal?

Reluctant stay.

 

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Just now, tonyh29 said:

presumably these people would have needed a passport to get to Ireland in the first place , unless Ireland has an open border for Syrian refugees ?

My point was that we won't know if they are Syrian, Irish, British or Vulcan unless we set up border controls and physical check points all along the Irish / Northern Irish border.

Whether we are happy to let them in, whether we want to allow Irish in but not Algerians etc., is for a later debate. But first, for this to make any sense and to have 'control' we need to set up a physical border with check points from Newry, Crossmaglen, Garrison, and Derry / Londonderry.

Once we have physical border guards we can decide on the entry criteria.

Do we really want to go back there?

 

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