Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

[Richard]

Scott the details have not been made public too much so as not to "weaken the negotiating hand" of Britain. However there was a letter written by Cameron to the EU president outlining some key things he would negotiate on..(This from a BBC article may help.....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32695399)

His four key objectives are:

• Economic governance: Securing an explicit recognition that the euro is not the only currency of the European Union, to ensure countries outside the eurozone are not materially disadvantaged. The UK wants safeguards that steps to further financial union cannot be imposed on non-eurozone members and the UK will not have to contribute to eurozone bailouts
• Competitiveness: Setting a target for the reduction of the "burden" of excessive regulation and extending the single market
• Immigration: Restricting access to in-work and out-of-work benefits to EU migrants. Specifically, ministers want to stop those coming to the UK from claiming certain benefits until they have been resident for four years. Ministers have reportedly been warned by the UK's top civil servant this could be discriminatory and any limits may be reduced to less than a year. An option of an "emergency brake" to stop the payments for four years is being discussed as a compromise deal
• Sovereignty: Allowing Britain to opt out from the EU's founding ambition to forge an "ever closer union" of the peoples of Europe so it will not be drawn into further political integration. Giving greater powers to national parliaments to block EU legislation.

---

In addition The Conservatives want to free business from red tape and "excessive interference" from Brussels and to provide access to new markets through "turbo charging" free trade deals with America and Asia.

They also want trade barriers in the services and digital sectors to be removed to create a truly single market as well as specific protections for the City of London.

They support continued enlargement of the EU to new members but with new mechanisms in place to "prevent vast migrations across the Continent".

The prime minister has said Britain would resist any move towards a European Army and that he wants to free British police forces from EU interference. He has also ruled out Britain joining the euro.

But he has placed less emphasis in recent years on demanding changes to EU social policy, such as the maximum 48-hour working week, agency workers, maternity leave and non-discrimination rules - amid pressure from trade unions to leave such protections intact.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

6 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Uber-PM for the papers?

I am not convinced that acting like a over privileged beggar with no mates is the way forward but it's all he's got I suppose.  He should have took a little dog on some string,  they always do good at begging.

The fact that we need to negotiate for this long only means this is all wrong.  Don't ask,  tell them and **** off home.  

[Genie]

5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I'm moaning because the media aren't reporting what it is he's trying to achieve, what the deal he's making is.

That's because nobody knows yet isn't it?

[OutByEaster?]

Richard, two things on your post - firstly, thank you. That's a little clearer.

Secondly - I do hope he fails, those objectives are horrific. It read to me as protect the banks and push through TTIP. I think I'd sooner learn French.

 

[OutByEaster?]

2 minutes ago, Genie said:

That's because nobody knows yet isn't it?

Secrecy in itself is a worry, especially because both in Government and in debates around the EU, there seems to be a lot of talk about Britain and protecting Britain and I'm not sure that the Britain Mr Cameron is interested in extends further than the City of London. 

The thing that makes the debate on the EU so difficult to properly judge is that it's almost impossible to discern what it is the EU actually does or is doing without making that your life's work, so you can project onto it whatever you want. 

 

 

[Richard]

3 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Richard, two things on your post - firstly, thank you. That's a little clearer.

Secondly - I do hope he fails, those objectives are horrific. It read to me as protect the banks and push through TTIP. I think I'd sooner learn French.

 

The interesting thing is both sides are probably hoping he fails!

The impact of failure though is really interesting as it would make the leave the EU argument a bit stronger so those wanting to stay in may actually be wanting the PM to succeed which makes any protestations now that the deal is rubbish very difficult to make from that side of the debate.

[OutByEaster?]

I have a feeling that the vote itself is a foregone conclusion and that the population of the UK will vote overwhelmingly in favour of leaving the EU. You can't feed people a diet of scary immigrants  and their stealing our jobs/benefits/women/crime for years on end and then talk them into forgetting it in a couple of months.

I think the sad truth of it Richard is that whilst both side are probably hoping he fails, it's not those at the sides that will decide - it's the huge swathe of people in the middle who aren't particularly interested in the detail but have been reading the headlines for the last few years.

 

[Richard]

4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I have a feeling that the vote itself is a foregone conclusion and that the population of the UK will vote overwhelmingly in favour of leaving the EU. You can't feed people a diet of scary immigrants  and their stealing our jobs/benefits/women/crime for years on end and then talk them into forgetting it in a couple of months.

I think the sad truth of it Richard is that whilst both side are probably hoping he fails, it's not those at the sides that will decide - it's the huge swathe of people in the middle who aren't particularly interested in the detail but have been reading the headlines for the last few years.

 

Interestingly speaking to one or two people the consensus seems to be that there are roughly 30% against,  30% for and 40% in the middle.  They extrapolate that they feel the likely outcome is that it will be 60:40 in favour of remaining in when the vote actually takes place.  I think the vote will be in favour of remaining but I do not think it will be 60:40 .  I think it will be withing 1 or 2 %

I believe whatever happens this will not be the end of it.  The end of it requires an overwhelming vote one way or the other.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Richard

[OutByEaster?]

4 minutes ago, Richard said:

Interestingly speaking to one or two people the consensus seems to be that there are roughly 30% against,  30% for and 40% in the middle.  They extrapolate that they feel the likely outcome is that it will be 60:40 in favour of remaining in when the vote actually takes place.  I think the vote will be in favour of remaining but I do not think it will be 60:40 .  I think it will be withing 1 or 2 %

I believe whatever happens this will not be the end of it.  The end of it requires an overwhelming vote one way or the other.

That's interesting, I'd thought things were clearer cut. You're right though that unless it's something very clear then it'll not be the end of anything.

 

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

I have a feeling that the vote itself is a foregone conclusion and that the population of the UK will vote overwhelmingly in favour of leaving the EU. You can't feed people a diet of scary immigrants  and their stealing our jobs/benefits/women/crime for years on end and then talk them into forgetting it in a couple of months.

I think the sad truth of it Richard is that whilst both side are probably hoping he fails, it's not those at the sides that will decide - it's the huge swathe of people in the middle who aren't particularly interested in the detail but have been reading the headlines for the last few years.

 

Interesting as I think it's also a foregone conclusion but the other way around  , I think the vote will be to stay   ... the scaremongering about the collapse of our economy will convince people to vote to stay the same way it did for the Jocks 

but either way the vote appears to be coming down to which brand of scaremongering prevails

 

[blandy]

2 hours ago, Richard said:

In many respects the negotiations themselves are a sign to me that we should leave. We are not asking for very much in the deal,  not much at all and some of the stuff sounds very reasonable us asking permission to determine some things for our own country and the way in which it spends its money ourselves,  What's wrong with that why shouldnt we do that,  we have to ask for permission FFS. And even these small things we are asking for they are not wanting to agree to.  For me that just shows what the EU is all about.  Power mad power hungry wanting control over every member state.  These negotiations have damned themselves for me. Out

Firstly, I agree, we're mostly not asking for much - in terms of the material difference it will make if he gets all he wants, or none of it.

Which to me kind of makes the whole exercise something of a massive wasted opportunity, both in terms of all the effort he and all the other people involved are engaged in. They're spending weeks negotiating over (in continent terms) trivia.

It seems to me like the continental nations are doing it, because they don't want the UK to leave, so given there's a prospect we might, they are having to do this. Some relatively happily, some grudgingly. But Cameron is using up his personal capital with them. They won't put up with him going back again in 2 years or 5 years and asking for other stuff.

It's also a waste, IMO, because there are massive problems with the EU that are not even on the radar - CAP, fisheries, response to migrants, TTIP,  Russia, Turkey, and so on. These things need, really need, sorting out.

Lastly, while the things he's asking for are part trivia, part tory trigger things, some of the principles are quite important, or very important to the existence of a union. If people within that union start having different rights than others then while the benefits paid amount to not much, the principle and potential implications longer term are significant - if you are from Country A and you move to country B, then you can't get the same health care or benefits, or access to services as people who were in country B all along...

It's just a massive mess of largely Cameron's own making. In a way he deserves to lose the referendum, lose his job and get a good metaphorical kicking for his blundering and pandering to the awkward squad and fear of UKIP that caused him to embark on the whole thing.

[blandy]

31 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

either way the vote appears to be coming down to which brand of scaremongering prevails

Like almost every other election type thing, then.

[tonyh29]

8 minutes ago, blandy said:

Like almost every other election type thing, then.

like that's ever happened  .....

 

 

[blandy]

[tonyh29]

I thought this one of the Tories was particularly below the belt ..

 

[OutByEaster?]

Yurp!!!

 

[blandy]

soz.

Yurp, yes. perhaps the "scaremongering" going on is because both staying and leaving are scary?

[tonyh29]

25 minutes ago, blandy said:

is because both staying and leaving are scary?

for some unknown reason  I was thinking this morning about the vote   and had it in my head  that I would get into the booth and vote "stay " when it came down to it  .. despite everything I've said over the years , even my location underneath my Avatar !!  , the fact this is likely to be the only chance we get at a vote  ... I still wouldn't rule it out that I'll vote stay

 

spooky isn't it  .. living proof why dumb people should be denied the vote

Edited February 19, 2016 by tonyh29

[villakram]

6 hours ago, Richard said:

 

• Economic governance: Securing an explicit recognition that the euro is not the only currency of the European Union, to ensure countries outside the eurozone are not materially disadvantaged. The UK wants safeguards that steps to further financial union cannot be imposed on non-eurozone members and the UK will not have to contribute to eurozone bailouts
• Competitiveness: Setting a target for the reduction of the "burden" of excessive regulation and extending the single market
• Immigration: Restricting access to in-work and out-of-work benefits to EU migrants. Specifically, ministers want to stop those coming to the UK from claiming certain benefits until they have been resident for four years. Ministers have reportedly been warned by the UK's top civil servant this could be discriminatory and any limits may be reduced to less than a year. An option of an "emergency brake" to stop the payments for four years is being discussed as a compromise deal
• Sovereignty: Allowing Britain to opt out from the EU's founding ambition to forge an "ever closer union" of the peoples of Europe so it will not be drawn into further political integration. Giving greater powers to national parliaments to block EU legislation.

Economic governance: Strawman. There is no rule whatsoever stating the U.K. would have to contribute financially to E.C.B. related folly. Now given the globally connected economy, if for example Deutsche Bank went south, you can be gauranteed that the Bank of England will be contributing one way or the other... to help the people of course.

Competitiveness: Neocon, trickle-down bs.

Immigration: This is currently up for debate across the entire E.U. with no consensus whatsoever. Special flower U.K. wants to be recognized as a special flower or Cameron is playing politics.

Sovereignty: Strawman. The U.K. parliament has the final say on this already.

 

 

[OutByEaster?]

From Dave's point of view he's done very well there - he's got some of the things he wanted out of the EU, including the protection for the banks, he's had the opportunity to look like a man who gets things done and taken it and crucially, he's made the EU look like people that he can deal with and control, which they'll be delighted about as it will make it a lot easier for him to then sell the "Remain" vote to an unsuspecting public and allow business as usual.

Well played you evil immoral shit.