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Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?


Genie

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?  

83 members have voted

  1. 1. As the title suggests. I guess the 2 sides of the debate will get lots of airtime over the next few weeks. What do the people of VT think?

    • Remain a member of the European Union
      47
    • Leave the European Union
      36


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We leave the EU and watch our economy crumble, listen to the industry experts the business men and women and they are all pro EU. Free movement of trade brings £££s. 

Having Parliament accountable to Brussels is a good thing, we have benefited loads from the European Convention on Human Rights!

The terms need re-negotiations, with free movement of people a controversial area.

But yes I am very pro EU!!

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2 hours ago, supermon said:

We leave the EU and watch our economy crumble, listen to the industry experts the business men and women and they are all pro EU. Free movement of trade brings £££s. 

Having Parliament accountable to Brussels is a good thing, we have benefited loads from the European Convention on Human Rights!

The terms need re-negotiations, with free movement of people a controversial area.

But yes I am very pro EU!!

I know this is a bit nit-picky, but the European Convention on Human Rights doesn't actually come from the EU. 

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not to mention the last few governments seem to have ripped it up anyway

but that means of your 2 pro arguments 1 of them isn't valid and the other 1 can easily be countered and indeed has been , I'm not sure you can claim ALL businesses experts are in favour either btw

so your Pro based on misinformation , much in the way I'm anti also based on misinformation ....... this is why the EU vote is doomed :) 

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Just spotted this whilst reading up on the cost. Net cost (total cost, minus what we get back) is around the £10bn mark each year.

Thats £192m A WEEK or £27.3m A DAY :o

an incredible amount of money given by the UK and then sent elsewhere.

net.jpg

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9 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

I know this is a bit nit-picky, but the European Convention on Human Rights doesn't actually come from the EU. 

But it's got "Europe" in its name and the tories want to get rid of it, so it's an easy mistake...

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13 minutes ago, blandy said:

But it's got "Europe" in its name and the tories want to get rid of it, so it's an easy mistake...

as is yours it seem

“Now our plans, set out in our manifesto, don’t involve us leaving the European convention on human rights. 

 

of course I expect you to counter with something about they are Tory's and the lie and well ..yeah you've got me there

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20 minutes ago, Genie said:

Just spotted this whilst reading up on the cost. Net cost (total cost, minus what we get back) is around the £10bn mark each year.

Thats £192m A WEEK or £27.3m A DAY :o

an incredible amount of money given by the UK and then sent elsewhere.

net.jpg

Does this account for what we get back that does not come centrally from the EU?

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5 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Does this account for what we get back that does not come centrally from the EU?

I'm not sure. Where else would the UK get a rebate on this money from if not 'central EU'?

Edited by Genie
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As I posted on the previous page, some estimates put the cost, minus incomings, at around £120 million/per week. Even if we call if £190 million/per week, that's still only about £3 per person per week. It's not a particularly large part of the government's budget. 

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I guess that depends on what the money we send them is for. If it's a series of bribes, like foreign aid, then I'm sure it indirectly secures contracts for UK business and helps support our economy. In a sense that's the purpose of the EU (and it's equivalent, the Pentagon); the movement of public money into the private sector. 

So whilst we give £27.3m a day - if BAE makes an extra billion a year, and a hedge fund manager at Citibank London makes an extra billion a year, then that money is helping the UK prosper. Yay.

 

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1 minute ago, Genie said:

I'm not sure, where else would the UK get a rebate on this money from if not 'central EU'?

My point is that just saying 'we give the EU £X and the EU gives us back <£X' doesn't tell the whole story because the UK will gain from trading within the EU as well as directly receiving from the EU. I wanted to know if those figures actually take into account 'monies' we receive as a direct result of being a member that are not actually issued by the EU.

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1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said:

As I posted on the previous page, some estimates put the cost, minus incomings, at around £120 million/per week. Even if we call if £190 million/per week, that's still only about £3 per person per week. It's not a particularly large part of the government's budget.

I'm not really sure dividing it by every man, wonan and child is relevant though is it?

If the UK Govenment had an extra £192 million every single week of the year it would be able to support a lot of great projects for the country. The money staying in the UK economy would then get spent and respent many times.

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4 minutes ago, Chindie said:

My point is that just saying 'we give the EU £X and the EU gives us back <£X' doesn't tell the whole story because the UK will gain from trading within the EU as well as directly receiving from the EU. I wanted to know if those figures actually take into account 'monies' we receive as a direct result of being a member that are not actually issued by the EU.

It tells the story of the cost of being a member of the EU which is what I wanted to mention.

Its near impossible to figure out if there would be any less money coming to the UK if we didn't have this membership, and also if it outweighed the £10bn it costs to be in the club. If this was the case you'd also have to balance if off by the benefit of having an extra £10bn a year sloshing around in our own economy.

Edited by Genie
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Just now, Genie said:

I'm not really sure dividing it by every man, wonan and child is relevant though is it?

If the UK Govenment had an extra £192 million every single week of the year it would be able to support a lot of great projects for the country. The money staying in the UK economy would then get spent and respent many times.

Firstly, as I say, the figures I've seen are closer to £120 million. 

Secondly, paying no money to Europe is not an option in this referendum. Even if people vote 'leave', we will still have to contribute to the EU budget, just like Norway and Switzerland do, in order to have access to the Common Market. Norway pays roughly 90% of what we do per capita, Switzerland (which has weaker access to the market) pays around 50% of what we do per capita. Anybody who tells you that we will simply stop paying money to the EU is just lying to you. 

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1 minute ago, Genie said:

I'm not really sure dividing it by every man, wonan and child is relevant though is it?

If the UK Govenment had an extra £192 million every single week of the year it would be able to support a lot of great projects for the country. The money staying in the UK economy would then get spent and respent many times.

But what about trade with the Germans increasing in cost by 15% (hypothetical) because we're outside the EU now. Or the French getting arsey and selling their goods elsewhere at a better rate than they'll give us? Or the Italians deciding it makes more sense to but that product from Spain now because it's easier.

And so on and so forth.

We might gain £192m in our pocket on the face of it, but once you do sums don't be surprised if you lose more. And that's only taking the easy trade angle.

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50 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

of course I expect you to counter with something about they are Tory's and the lie and well ..yeah you've got me there

I was just going on what Theresa may and a host of others have said in the past year. for example torygraph. But you're right, they do lie. Often.

Quote

"That's why the next Conservative manifesto will promise to scrap the Human Rights Act.

"It's why Chris Grayling [the Justice Secretary] is leading a review of our relationship with the European Court.

"And it's why the Conservative position is clear - if leaving the European Convention [on Human Rights] is what it takes to fix our human rights laws, that is what we should do.

edit - because you didn't put a link in, I mooneyed your quote and it came up with this as the source - though no doubt there will be others asa he seems to have said it in parliament. Your quote also misses out the bit where he said "I rule out absolutely nothing"

Quote

David Cameron has confirmed that he would be prepared to withdraw from the European convention on human rights if a series of proposed changes to Britain’s human rights laws are rejected by Strasbourg. ...... “Now our plans, set out in our manifesto, don’t involve us leaving the European convention on human rights. But let’s be absolutely clear. If we can’t achieve what we need – and I’m very clear about that when we’ve got these foreign criminals committing offence after offence and we can’t send them home because of their right to a family life – that needs to change. And I rule out absolutely nothing in getting that done.”

 

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Chris Grayling!!!!

Of course! This could all have been resolved so much quicker, so much more simply.

Just find out what Chris Grayling would do, and do the absolute opposite.

That's a life tip, not just an EU referendum tip.

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19 minutes ago, Chindie said:

But what about trade with the Germans increasing in cost by 15% (hypothetical) because we're outside the EU now. Or the French getting arsey and selling their goods elsewhere at a better rate than they'll give us? Or the Italians deciding it makes more sense to but that product from Spain now because it's easier.

And so on and so forth.

We might gain £192m in our pocket on the face of it, but once you do sums don't be surprised if you lose more. And that's only taking the easy trade angle.

I don't realistically see any reason why people would significantly change their buying or selling habits tbh. It won't be any more difficult to buy from the UK.

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