Rob182 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 I genuinely believe that all of the following players could leave us and become good players in the Premier League, as part of a different team that plays as a team: Ayew, Gil, Amavi, Richards, Gana, Traore, Lescott, Cissokho, Bacuna, Guzan, Bunn & . Those are the ones off the top of my head. Our issue is that, too often, we don't play 'as a team', and that has a number of contributing factors - too many new players, too many foreign players, too many old/uninterested players, changes in management and playing style etc If you were to throw Gana into the current West Ham side, for example, he could be quality for them. You could throw Gil into the current Stoke side, and he'd be good for them. You could throw Amavi or Ayew into half the teams in the league, and they would show their true worth. Just because we're bottom of the league, doesn't mean all of our players are 'bottom of the league' players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Not really. Probably one of the poorest posts I've ever read tbh. Haha. On what basis. I thought I was presenting facts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 On current form, we're actually on a upwards trajectory. If we go down and keep all our players and Rémi, then I think we'd come back up no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyGray1985 Posted February 2, 2016 Visiting Supporter Share Posted February 2, 2016 2 minutes ago, Rob182 said: I genuinely believe that all of the following players could leave us and become good players in the Premier League, as part of a different team that plays as a team: Ayew, Gil, Amavi, Richards, Gana, Traore, Lescott, Cissokho, Bacuna, Guzan, Bunn & . Those are the ones off the top of my head. Our issue is that, too often, we don't play 'as a team', and that has a number of contributing factors - too many new players, too many foreign players, too many old/uninterested players, changes in management and playing style etc If you were to throw Gana into the current West Ham side, for example, he could be quality for them. You could throw Gil into the current Stoke side, and he'd be good for them. You could throw Amavi or Ayew into half the teams in the league, and they would show their true worth. Just because we're bottom of the league, doesn't mean all of our players are 'bottom of the league' players. Most players benefit from being put in a better team. Can't see more than 4 or 5 that would get in a PL-team not involved in the relegation battle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 3 minutes ago, Rob182 said: I genuinely believe that all of the following players could leave us and become good players in the Premier League, as part of a different team that plays as a team: Ayew, Gil, Amavi, Richards, Gana, Traore, Lescott, Cissokho, Bacuna, Guzan, Bunn & . Those are the ones off the top of my head. Our issue is that, too often, we don't play 'as a team', and that has a number of contributing factors - too many new players, too many foreign players, too many old/uninterested players, changes in management and playing style etc If you were to throw Gana into the current West Ham side, for example, he could be quality for them. You could throw Gil into the current Stoke side, and he'd be good for them. You could throw Amavi or Ayew into half the teams in the league, and they would show their true worth. Just because we're bottom of the league, doesn't mean all of our players are 'bottom of the league' players. Absolutely spot on. It think it's wrong to say that none of our current players wouldn't get into any PL 11's, which is the implication that is being made here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 The only player who it would surprise me if another Premier team came in for is, Gestede and perhaps N'Zogbia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Just now, AndyGray1985 said: Most players benefit from being put in a better team. Can't see more than 4 or 5 that would get in a PL-team not involved in the relegation battle Decent logic this. So they'd get into mid table teams because they have better players but not teams in a relegation battle? got you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 8 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: Haha. On what basis. I thought I was presenting facts? Well you just seemed to point out that some of them had been injured as the only plausible excuse for them being shite when on the field. Take amavi for example. Sure there were one or two games where he looked good. He's now injured. People seem to forget that there was some games where he was awful. So awful that quite a few ppl after the chelsea game Said that sherwood was right to bring richardson in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 20 minutes ago, VillaCas said: No I'm not being drawn into a different argument You agreed that Ayew was our best player but stated that he wasn't good enough for the premier league By implication this means that you believe that none of our players are good enough for the premier league I think we have a dozen players or more who would be good enough to feature in the line-ups of most mid and lower half teams No I said Ayew is our best player but on the whole hasn't played well enough at premier league level this season. The implication is that none of our new players have done this, hence our position. They may well be good enough in the future but this season has shown they are not at the required level right now to perform on a consistent basis. Like I said, who has performed at a decent premier league level on a consistent basis for us this season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyGray1985 Posted February 2, 2016 Visiting Supporter Share Posted February 2, 2016 5 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Decent logic this. So they'd get into mid table teams because they have better players but not teams in a relegation battle? got you This was what I was replying to: "I genuinely believe that all of the following players could leave us and become good players in the Premier League, as part of a different team that plays as a team" Which is saying they would do better in a better team. Which is hardly surprising. In a team like Sunderland I doubt any of the mentioned players would make much of an impact, as they are as disorganised as Villa, and none og these players are leaders. I can see 4, maybe 5 players that could play a role in "a team that plays like a team" to use your phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 1 hour ago, DCJonah said: I like Ayew but since the start of the season, his very good games have been in the minority. I think he will continue to get better and become a better player but for this season on the whole he's not been good enough. Same with all our players. Veretout and gana have had moments but have also looked well off the pace. Amavi for all his good work going forward still looked weak at times in defence. I think these players have the potential to be good solid premier league players but they're not at that standard yet and have shown it this season. Our new players haven't been up to scratch and our existing players continue to decline. It's that mix that sees us as the worst team in the league. You're taking a very simplistic view. The real situation is much more complicated. You initially argued that Ayew "was not premier league standard". By implication that means that he is not good enough to play regualrly for a team in the premier league. Let's ignore Newcastle and Sunderland as they are in the other relegation spots and concentrate on others. Your arguments is that Ayew is not good enough to play for Norwich, Bournemouth, Swansea, WBA, Palace, Watford. Really? You really think that at the moment Ayew is Championship level at best. To extend your argument, you agreed that Ayew had been our best player so by implication the rest must be worse Okore? Amavi? Lescott? Gil? Veretout?, Gana? Richards? none of them could get a game for Norwich? Bournemouth? WBA? Sinclair, Westwood, Clark, Lescott would all get games at the clubs mentioned My opinion is that we are a GK, CB and Striker away from a mid-table side. Collectively we are the worst team in the league (although at this exact moment in time I don't actually think we are the worst) but this is down to much more than players ability alone. Confidence, tactics and squad balance make up a massive part. Are Leicesters players the best in the league becuase they are top? Is Huth the PL best CB - obviously not We are made up of players of differing abilities - some are not good enough Gestede, Hutton, Guzan. Some would look like world beaters if they had good players around them The eleven worst players in the league - I don't think so 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 17 minutes ago, Rob182 said: I genuinely believe that all of the following players could leave us and become good players in the Premier League, as part of a different team that plays as a team: Ayew, Gil, Amavi, Richards, Gana, Traore, Lescott, Cissokho, Bacuna, Guzan, Bunn & . Those are the ones off the top of my head. Our issue is that, too often, we don't play 'as a team', and that has a number of contributing factors - too many new players, too many foreign players, too many old/uninterested players, changes in management and playing style etc If you were to throw Gana into the current West Ham side, for example, he could be quality for them. You could throw Gil into the current Stoke side, and he'd be good for them. You could throw Amavi or Ayew into half the teams in the league, and they would show their true worth. Just because we're bottom of the league, doesn't mean all of our players are 'bottom of the league' players. There is literally nothing to support these wild claims rob? Nothing at all. You are right in saying that just because we are bottom of the league it doesn't mean we have bottom of the league players. However, we can only go on what we know and what we know is that they have all more often than not been shite. Gil, Gana would not get into those sides you're suggesting. That tells you everything you need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 38 minutes ago, AndyGray1985 said: Everton has been following him for a long while, according to Bryan King. I just did some calculations. Average goals conceded per game with Okore in the team (2014-15 & 2015-16): 1.38 Average goals conceded per game without Okore (same time period): 1.65 And that includes those games at the end of last season (eg. the 6 conceded against Southampton) when Okore is widely acknowledged to have been injured. Our defence is much much better with him in the team, I'm not surprised other clubs have noticed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 'wild claims'? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 so way I see it we have players that could get into good teams and have seen one poster post 9 outfield players yet they cant string a pass together when playing for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humanoid Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 Well, that concludes it then; We're too good to go down lol 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaCas Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 1 minute ago, Zatman said: so way I see it we have players that could get into good teams and have seen one poster post 9 outfield players yet they cant string a pass together when playing for us That's just not true though is it Our defence was very poor at the start of the season and we can't score goals. We're not having any trouble "stringing passes together" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 26 minutes ago, Rob182 said: I genuinely believe that all of the following players could leave us and become good players in the Premier League, as part of a different team that plays as a team: Ayew, Gil, Amavi, Richards, Gana, Traore, Lescott, Cissokho, Bacuna, Guzan, Bunn & . Those are the ones off the top of my head. so if we had a starting 11 consisting of this line-up we wouldnt be in this mess? Guzan/Bunn Amavi Richards Lescott Cissokho Gana Bacuna Traore Gil Ayew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 24 minutes ago, useless said: The only player who it would surprise me if another Premier team came in for is, Gestede and perhaps N'Zogbia. Plus Sinclair and Agbonlahor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
srsmithusa Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 10 hours ago, HanoiVillan said: Hypothesis 1: Bigger clubs do not, in fact, generally struggle in the Championship. In fact, bigger clubs do better than smaller clubs in the Championship. Hypothesis 2: Stadium capacity is a reasonable proxy for 'size of club', accepting that there are bigger clubs with smaller stadia (QPR) and vice versa (Coventry) but that these generally even out. Hypothesis 3: Generally speaking in the Championship, teams with bigger stadia finish higher in the league table. Results: 2007/08 Promoted Av: 26,725 Top Half Av: 26,231 Bottom Half Av: 23,867 Relegated Av: 17,200 2008/09 Promoted Av: 27,706 Top Half Av: 26,627 Bottom Half Av: 25,364 Relegated Av: 28,875 2009/10 Promoted Av: 31,979 Top Half Av: 27,793 Bottom Half Av: 24,218 Relegated Av: 24,517 2010/11 Promoted Av: 22,136 Top Half Av: 27,360 Bottom Half Av: 23,386 Relegated Av: 21,764 2011/12 Promoted Av: 30,670 Top Half Av: 29,233 Bottom Half Av: 23,845 Relegated Av: 22,810 2012/13 Promoted Av: 27,980 Top Half Av: 28,327 Bottom Half Av: 26,624 Relegated Av: 19,811 2013/14 Promoted Av: 24,067 Top Half Av: 27,019 Bottom Half Av: 24,654 Relegated Av: 15,968 2014/15 Promoted Av: 19,991 Top Half Av: 27,075 Bottom Half Av: 26,460 Relegated Av: 20,640 Analysis: Teams that finished in the top half have bigger stadia than those in the bottom half, every season. Because of much smaller samples, promoted teams have a smaller average fairly regularly - being a small club is not a barrier to promotion (see Burnley / QPR / Bournemouth) Really small clubs get relegated, generally quite quickly (Scunthorpe / Colchester / Yeovil) The data doesn't support the idea that the Championship is harder for bigger clubs can we put some extra chairs in the aisles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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