Stevo985 Posted July 16, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 16, 2020 2 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said: At what cost though? The legal proceedings alone will take up time and money, let alone the inevitable protection of her. Sorry but I feel she forfeited those rights when she decided that killing innocent people was a great thing. I'm not sure whether she deserves her citizenship back. I can understand both sides of the argument. But I absolutely agree that she should be allowed back here to represent herself fairly at a fair trial. That is art of what makes our country a civilised country. Denying that right is horrifying to be perfectly honest. If that costs us money then so be it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 You cannot 'forfeit' human rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 8 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: I'm not sure whether she deserves her citizenship back. I can understand both sides of the argument. But I absolutely agree that she should be allowed back here to represent herself fairly at a fair trial. That is art of what makes our country a civilised country. Denying that right is horrifying to be perfectly honest. If that costs us money then so be it I think taking citizenship away is horrifying too tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 16, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: I think taking citizenship away is horrifying too tbh. Yeah I kind of agree. I can just see the other side of the argument too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 16, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 16, 2020 8 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: You cannot 'forfeit' human rights. Agreed. The clue is the "human" part. You qualify by existing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 25 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: They are two very different things, but they're not different in the one way you'd mentioned as key - they're different in method and in principles and in thought and application, but their purpose is to remove enemies and protect a community - she'd argue she was doing the same. I don't think you can consider that; "when your cause is to eradicate a section of humanity I feel you should lose any human rights." without acknowledging that in reality you mean "When I don't agree with your cause to eradicate a section of humanity I feel you should lose any human rights." The cause in this case was personified by a suicide bomber at an Ariana Grande concert which resulted in the deaths of many women and children, among others of course. I'm not sure this is a semantics thing personally, again, people may disagree. I consider myself fairly liberal but this is where I draw the line, yeah sure she was groomed no doubt and yeah sure, there are probably worse folk out there than her but she should lie in the bed she's made for herself, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 She should face justice in the country she was born is and has citizenship of. You can't just discard your citizens because it's easier. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted July 16, 2020 Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2020 21 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: The cause in this case was personified by a suicide bomber at an Ariana Grande concert which resulted in the deaths of many women and children, among others of course. If he'd carried out a drone strike from a bunker in Salford, would it have changed anything? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 16, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 16, 2020 21 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: The cause in this case was personified by a suicide bomber at an Ariana Grande concert which resulted in the deaths of many women and children, among others of course. I'm not sure this is a semantics thing personally, again, people may disagree. I consider myself fairly liberal but this is where I draw the line, yeah sure she was groomed no doubt and yeah sure, there are probably worse folk out there than her but she should lie in the bed she's made for herself, in my opinion. And she will. But she has the right to a fair trial in her own country to determine what that bed is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrusr Posted July 16, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Chindie said: What bad news it being covered up as the nation shits itself over a young woman again? The Russia report probably? And on this issue, she wouldn’t be tried for treason, she would be tried under terrorism act for whatever the appropriate charges are. Further the severity of a crime is completely irrelevant as to whether you should be tried or not; everyone is entitled to a fair trial and treated innocent until proven guilty. Whilst in this case there maybe a lot of evidence to suggest she is guilty, doesn’t mean any defence won’t hold up. Due process has to take place and to be fair, she should never have lost the citizenship in the first instance, but it was totally expected given the outcry. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 34 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said: If he'd carried out a drone strike from a bunker in Salford, would it have changed anything? Not if it was as illegitimate a target no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 34 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: And she will. But she has the right to a fair trial in her own country to determine what that bed is. I get that to an extent - as I've said already and I'd hope it's come through in other posts I'm a relatively liberal person and I believe in fairness and equality. However, I also believe in appropriate punishment and I can't see beyond the opinion that she's already in the bed she deserves. I don't know if anyone else can recall the interview Sky did with her in the camp she's being held in, you could see in her eyes there was not the smallest crumb of remorse or apology - now, I have considered that she may not have felt safe to show remorse in that environment but she was vacant, she obviously doesn't care about Britain or being British, she cares about finding the easiest way out of the shithole she's living in. I feel like this is being forgotten in the midst of a wider debate on human rights here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) She's a human, regardless of her vacant nature, or lack of remorse. There are mass murderers, child rapists, they are awful human beings but they're still human and deserve their human rights, regardless of the dehumanising acts they've committed. Edited July 16, 2020 by StefanAVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyrusr Posted July 16, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: I get that to an extent - as I've said already and I'd hope it's come through in other posts I'm a relatively liberal person and I believe in fairness and equality. However, I also believe in appropriate punishment and I can't see beyond the opinion that she's already in the bed she deserves. I don't know if anyone else can recall the interview Sky did with her in the camp she's being held in, you could see in her eyes there was not the smallest crumb of remorse or apology - now, I have considered that she may not have felt safe to show remorse in that environment but she was vacant, she obviously doesn't care about Britain or being British, she cares about finding the easiest way out of the shithole she's living in. I feel like this is being forgotten in the midst of a wider debate on human rights here. I think that my problem with this is that in essence its "trial by media". You have made your own mind up about it based on an interview she has done. That doesn't account for how she was prepared for the interview, whether it took into account her own difficulties, whether she was led to give those answers. I understand that she has significant learning difficulties and would constitute a "vulnerable witness". She is far more susceptible to being led and coerced. Think "Making a Murderer" as an easy example of how bad it could be. The point I am making is that it is usually never as clear cut as it is made out by the media, hence the need to ensure trials are done properly and fairly. It is why the cut in legal aid and criminal justice should be bigger news than it is, but that is another issue altogether. I think to be fair to you as well, we are all guilty of falling for "Trial by Media" (Prince Andrew, Johnny Depp just as current examples). My criticism is more of an indictment of modern society rather than anything specific. With social media, instant reaction is easy to get and quick to be forgotten when the world moves onto the next issue having already prejudged what has happened without all the facts. Edited July 16, 2020 by cyrusr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 2 hours ago, StefanAVFC said: I feel like the nation has collectively lost its minds when it comes to this case. If she was a white girl in the same situation, groomed to go to some extreme Christian collective, the 'Bring her home' campaign would be deafening. Do you really think so? Its not as if Begum has shown any remorse whatsoever. FWIW I'm in favour of her facing justice and hopefully she'll be punished with a very long sentence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 16, 2020 Author Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2020 1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said: they're not different in the one way you'd mentioned as key - they're different in method and in principles and in thought and application, but their purpose is to remove enemies and protect a community - she'd argue she was doing the same. I don't think you can consider that; "when your cause is to eradicate a section of humanity I feel you should lose any human rights." without acknowledging that in reality you mean "When I don't agree with your cause to eradicate a section of humanity I feel you should lose any human rights." There's so much wrong with this (IMO), I don't know where to start. The purpose of terrorism is not to "protect a community" as far as I understand it. It also has the (for the terrorists) the unfortunate consequence of endangering not just the people they attack, but also their own "community", though with radical Islam "their own community" significantly reviles them and wants nothing to do with them or their murdering ways. The army does not have any purpose around "eradicating a section of humanity". Its purpose is (as you do acknowledge) to protect the nation (multiple communities). While obviously this can involve lethal force, surrender of the enemy with no fatalities is the ultimate aim of the army, the same can't be said for Radical Islamic terrorists who attack people for who they are, or what they believe, rather than for posing a genuine threat. Where I do agree is the protection of human rights - everyone should be protected in that way - another thing that is the difference between the head choppers and the Army. It's true that some individual soldiers have over time breached human rights, against orders and the rules of the Army. Terrorists breach human rights (ignore them completely) as a matter of intent and routine and purpose. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted July 16, 2020 Author Moderator Share Posted July 16, 2020 1 hour ago, NurembergVillan said: If he'd carried out a drone strike from a bunker in Salford, would it have changed anything? If that's somehow an analogy to the use of unmanned aircraft by the RAF to terrorism, then it's also as awry as Scott's post, IMO. But we're in danger of going off the topic of baby-eating tories here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 3 hours ago, Chindie said: What bad news it being covered up as the nation shits itself over a young woman again? 1 hour ago, cyrusr said: The Russia report probably? Fudge and delay so Brexit gets over the line before it's investigated for foreign meddling. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted July 16, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted July 16, 2020 1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said: I get that to an extent - as I've said already and I'd hope it's come through in other posts I'm a relatively liberal person and I believe in fairness and equality. However, I also believe in appropriate punishment and I can't see beyond the opinion that she's already in the bed she deserves. I don't know if anyone else can recall the interview Sky did with her in the camp she's being held in, you could see in her eyes there was not the smallest crumb of remorse or apology - now, I have considered that she may not have felt safe to show remorse in that environment but she was vacant, she obviously doesn't care about Britain or being British, she cares about finding the easiest way out of the shithole she's living in. I feel like this is being forgotten in the midst of a wider debate on human rights here. How can you say she’s got an appropriate punishment if she hasn’t had the trial she’s entitled to do determine that punishment? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 16 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: How can you say she’s got an appropriate punishment if she hasn’t had the trial she’s entitled to do determine that punishment? Because she’s living in the shithole that she voluntarily opted to go and live in, that’s the punishment and I can’t personally think of anything more appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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