PompeyVillan Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Carillon is going bust. So why not pump lots of public money into privite enterprise, because as we all know the market is the most efficient? We're better off giving money to rich people to make them richer than to invest money into the country to make it better place to live in. Because as we all know and have been told for years privite good, public bad. (But let's ignore the bailouts of the privitised prison service and the upcoming bailout of.the railways... again). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 It will be disgrace if they bail Carrillion out especially given the company paid out dividends to shareholders a few months ago. Obviously this doesn't play into Tory ideology that public is bad private is good but they need to take the contracts Carrillion have back into public control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 13, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 13, 2018 The Carillion thing has been coming for months, we've watched it coming at work. They announced they would default on their financial covenants nearly 2 months ago and managed to get a stay of execution for 4 months at the last minute, and barely a month into that time they're hanging on by a thread. The problem is they're so large, and so involved in so many projects, letting them die will start a snowball effect through the sector taking other businesses with them, making 20k job losses even worse, and **** up a bunch of infrastructure projects. They will have to be bailled out, somehow. No creditors will back the company now without some insurance, as even with money now, they're a mess. So government will have to step in somehow. What questions will need to be asked include why, IIRC, Carillion were getting government contracts even after this crisis started becoming apparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Just nationalise them FFS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Why should the government (the people who pay their taxes,) bail them out? What do they get in return? It's bull****, the people get ripped off once again to maintain the Tory austerity agenda. It's beyond a scandal, no only do we have to suffer sub par schools, hospitals and policing (etc) we also have to bail out the greedy, dip**** companies that go bust that fail to provide public infrastructure or services that we all need and rely on. And the worst part is that we (collectively) let this sort of thing continually happen. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 14, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 14, 2018 I understand the anger at a bailout but honestly, I don't think the government can leave Carillion to collapse, and no one in their right mind is going to save them any other way. They are one of those that are too big to allow them to fail. It'd be a disaster. They're massive, they are key name in the industry, they are involved in hundreds of projects and a great deal of companies will be relying on Carillion orders and Carillion work. That can't be allowed to collapse. Why it's taken this long for the government to get spooked I dunno. Everyone else was scared off literally months ago. Like, 4/5/6 months ago. The government was still giving them future contracts. Mad. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 14, 2018 Moderator Share Posted January 14, 2018 7 hours ago, PompeyVillan said: Why should the government (the people who pay their taxes,) bail them out? What do they get in return? It's bull****, the people get ripped off once again to maintain the Tory austerity agenda. It's beyond a scandal, no only do we have to suffer sub par schools, hospitals and policing (etc) we also have to bail out the greedy, dip**** companies that go bust that fail to provide public infrastructure or services that we all need and rely on. And the worst part is that we (collectively) let this sort of thing continually happen. Just an example of the projects they are involved with... the new Royal Hospital in Liverpool, due to be finished this year (a year late.) Thats why it’s important it isn’t just let go to the wall. However I agree with Darren’s assessment. They should be Nationalised. The projects they are currently involved with finished and then wound down. No way should shareholders be allowed to benefit from it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 14, 2018 Author Moderator Share Posted January 14, 2018 7 hours ago, Chindie said: .... I don't think the government can leave Carillion to collapse, and no one in their right mind is going to save them any other way. They are one of those that are too big to allow them to fail. It'd be a disaster. They're massive, they are key name in the industry, they are involved in hundreds of projects and a great deal of companies will be relying on Carillion orders and Carillion work. That can't be allowed to collapse. Why it's taken this long for the government to get spooked I dunno. Everyone else was scared off literally months ago. Like, 4/5/6 months ago. The government was still giving them future contracts. Mad. There’s a contradiction of criticisms in that post isn’t there? potentially at least. I mean if the govt can’t leave them to fail (which is a credible view), then particularly given the private sector “ was scared off literally months ago” from contracting with them, then the contradiction is the criticism of the government for giving them work which would keep them going, with a chance to sort themselves out, thus avoiding a collapse and then saying the government was mad to give them work which has kept them going, (so far). now possibly the govt gave them work, oblivious of their financial worries, and bore no thought about keeping them going when they did so. Maybe cynically I suspect that’s the more likely scenario - that they just gave them the work without knowing or looking into the background health of the company. In which case you could criticise the government for casual slackness, not doing research, being unaware of risks, doing a half arsed, churn it out sort of disastropork. That’s much more likely than them doing due financial diligence, seeing the company was at risk and then giving them work to reduce the problems they had, with a view to saving them, because they couldn’t be allowed to fail, and that paying them for work, to protect them and all the dependent contractors etc and get stuff built at the same time in return which is far better than just watching them fail and then having to do a massive bailout. Clearly that’s unlikely, because we know that Grayling, the minister, is an absolute miracle insofar as he manages to somehow perform at least very simple tasks, despite being clinically brain dead. He’d be outwitted by a decaying cheese toastie, he’s that useless. tl:dr. No, that’s not it, Grayling’s too stupid. It’s just another failure to do things properly. The tories, they mess everything up. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Anyone seen this. Definitely worth a watch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Breitbart UK editor. No thanks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 14, 2018 Moderator Share Posted January 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Anyone seen this. Definitely worth a watch Not really worth watching at all Dem, Kassam is a grade A UKIP / BREITBART gimp. He's a shock tactic clown 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, bickster said: Not really worth watching at all Dem, Kassam is a grade A UKIP / BREITBART gimp. He's a shock tactic clown Exactly makes you realise what a clearing in the woods he is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 14, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 14, 2018 44 minutes ago, blandy said: There’s a contradiction of criticisms in that post isn’t there? potentially at least. I mean if the govt can’t leave them to fail (which is a credible view), then particularly given the private sector “ was scared off literally months ago” from contracting with them, then the contradiction is the criticism of the government for giving them work which would keep them going, with a chance to sort themselves out, thus avoiding a collapse and then saying the government was mad to give them work which has kept them going, (so far). now possibly the govt gave them work, oblivious of their financial worries, and bore no thought about keeping them going when they did so. Maybe cynically I suspect that’s the more likely scenario - that they just gave them the work without knowing or looking into the background health of the company. In which case you could criticise the government for casual slackness, not doing research, being unaware of risks, doing a half arsed, churn it out sort of disastropork. That’s much more likely than them doing due financial diligence, seeing the company was at risk and then giving them work to reduce the problems they had, with a view to saving them, because they couldn’t be allowed to fail, and that paying them for work, to protect them and all the dependent contractors etc and get stuff built at the same time in return which is far better than just watching them fail and then having to do a massive bailout. Clearly that’s unlikely, because we know that Grayling, the minister, is an absolute miracle insofar as he manages to somehow perform at least very simple tasks, despite being clinically brain dead. He’d be outwitted by a decaying cheese toastie, he’s that useless. tl:dr. No, that’s not it, Grayling’s too stupid. It’s just another failure to do things properly. The tories, they mess everything up. Reading back there's a flaw in my original post which hasn't helped here. I really shouldn't have said 'everyone else we scared off months ago'. Carillion hasn't been abandoned by the private sector, people are still keen to do business with them. My comment was more directed to caution being advised by the financial world. I also believe Carillion's issues extend beyond contract issues, which means government giving them more business doesn't really resolve much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Oh dear. It seems that hedge funds, including one that pays Mr Osborne £650,000 a year for his wise advice, will make a bomb from having shorted Carillion. Mr Grayling, who seems not to have had the same information or insights despite having a civil service to advise him, has kept extending the exposure of the government to Carillion by continuing to give them new contracts when they were issuing regular profit warnings and when his chum Mr Osborne was betting they would go tits up. And so we are told we are so exposed, so dependent on them, that we have to bail them out. So their top bods get bonuses, the hedge funds make millions, and we pick up the losses. Result! Chin chin! I see they provide catering for the NHS and run prisons, among other things. The propaganda for hamding such contracts to firms like this is fhat it saves the taxpayer money. Let's see a true accounting, including the full costs, the disruption, the backhanders, the parasitic speculative profits, the retendering, the impact on those running the services that buy in these things, and then we will find that the headline savings are just illusion. Quote Hedge funds and other financial speculators have made tens of millions of pounds by quietly betting that Carillion would run into financial distress. Short-sellers, who make money by gambling that a company’s share price will fall, have been targeting the company since early 2015, but the number of bets reached a peak just before a profit warning last July that signalled the scale of its problems and sent its shares tumbling. Carillion’s popularity with short-sellers suggests hedge funds were convinced the company was in trouble long before suspicions reached politicians and the public. According to analysis firm IHS Markit, 18 hedge funds made £80m from the initial share slump, with much more likely to have been banked since then, after further steep falls. The biggest winner from July’s share price crash was hedge fund Marshall Wace, whose co-founder Sir Ian Marshall was a major backer of the leave campaign in the Brexit referendum. Another institution that took out big bets on Carillion’s downfall is BlackRock, the US-based investment institution that hired former chancellor George Osborne as an adviser last year, on a £650,000 salary. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 Subhuman scum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 This kind of stuff really should be a scandal big enough to bring a government down. It's blatant corruption. But I find myself saying that every few days and nothing changes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 14, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 14, 2018 Shorting Carillion has been openly discussed for months iirc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted January 15, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted January 15, 2018 ...well that escalated quickly. Government is taking on Carillion public sector services for the time being, which aren't insignificant. It's being liquidated which should indicate how bad things are, effectively saying the whole thing is unsalvageable as a going concern. Which is a worry for a company that big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 3 minutes ago, Chindie said: Which is a worry for a company that big. It must be quite bad as I thought Administration 1st but it's so bad to be liquidated straight away. 900 Million in debt. Question: If you give out big or huge contracts to companies should the Government at least know that the company is healthy ? Don't the negotiations of a contract require this from the Governments perspective ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 So Oxfordshire County Council has taken over services provided to them by Carillion, having been planning for some time to do that because of the widespread concerns about the company; while Chris "Failing" Grayling thought it would be a good idea to give them more work. On the face of it, a remarkably incompetent decision by Failing, which should merit close examination once the dust has settled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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