Losers

[StefanAVFC]

Sherwood made a comment last week that they are too many losers in the game, and then again yesterday in the wake of our humiliating defeat to Arsenal in the FA cup final, that our players are losers and need to get used to winning. This got me thinking about this losing mentality and being a loser. I thought back to my time supporting Villa in earnest (from around the age of 7/8 - around 99/00) and actually, we've always been losers. Even when we've been winning, we're losers. Lets look at it in detail. Some of the earlier memories are hazier as I was younger then.

 

2000 - FA cup final against a side that weren't that much better than us, but we didn't turn up and lost. Could have been a huge day for our fans but our club lost.

 

Most of the 00's (under RL) - We became a team that were perfectly happy to sit in upper mid table, not make any waves in the transfer market or the cups)

 

Now for the main point of my post, and one I can actually write with more detail and recollection based on my own personal experiences.

 

2006 - Lerner takes over and this is it. We are not going to be losers anymore. We are going to be winners. We had MON as our manager. A winner. This is going to be good.

 

2009 - We had barely made it through the group stages of the Europa league having lost to European giants MSK Zilina at home, but we'd made it. Fantastic, lets make a run at it. But no, we take a severely weakened team to Moscow and throw the tie. Winners don't throw matches. We all know what happened next. We drew to Stoke and having been 3rd place in February, ended up finishing 6th. It should have been one of the best seasons in recent history, but it wasn't to be. Even when times are good for our club, we still manage to show what losers we are.

 

2010 - Losing to Rapid Vienna in the prelim round of the Europa league set the tone for the rest of the season with regards to being losers. We lost at Wembley twice. We can blame Dowd all we like, but we lost another final. We were losers again.

 

2011 - We appointed Alex McLeish and it became apparent that the club's goal was to stay in the PL and nothing more. Not a winner's attitude is it?

 

2012-15 - All funding cut back. Lambert appointed with the sole aim of keeping the club in the division. Bringing in young and hungry players wasn't the worst idea, but when you bring them into a club full of losers, what do they become? 

 

Yesterday completely summed it up for me. We are a club full of losers. Sherwood has it spot on about the players but the problem goes far, far deeper. We won't ever win anything while the entire club has this attitude. The chairman is a loser, the players are losers, it's too early to say whether Sherwood is a loser, the staff are losers, the fans are losers; everything and everyone to do with this football club is a loser.

 

It isn't Lerner's, Lambert's, Faulker's, the player's faults; they weren't losers before they came here. Absolutely none of them has done anything to try to change that mentality though. Lerner with his ridiculous funding and pathetic expectations. Lambert with his backwards tactics, negative approaches to big games and mumbling. The players just not showing up when they really needed to. I'm saddened by yesterday but it was totally expected. The club can't even be expected to turn up for an FA cup final, never mind try to win it. It's the mentality of the entire club that's the problem.

 

I have absolutely no idea how to change it, but until it does, we'll never win anything or be successful ever again.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: By becoming winners, I don't mean we should be winning the league, come on. Swansea are a team of winners. That's what I mean.

Edited May 31, 2015 by StefanAVFC

[PompeyVillan]

There are not many winners in football. It's not a losing mentality to admit the obvious, that we lack the infrastructure and funding to become perennial challengers.

Lerner had a go, but soon realised that it wasn't enough. That an the fact he trusted the wrong manager with the money.

Football is an incredibly closed shop.

That said, this club had been mismanaged on many levels for a long time and that has led to our stagnation. There is more we can do to modernise and I'm fairly confident we have goody people in to make the correct changes. At our level you have to gamble with your recruitment.

[sir_gary_cahill]

Good post, i agree with all of it, we're rotten to the core and have been for years, it's gone on for far too long, my support will never waiver but something needs to change, we can't just avoid relegation each season

[StefanAVFC]

There are not many winners in football. It's not a losing mentality to admit the obvious, that we lack the infrastructure and funding to become perennial challengers.

Lerner had a go, but soon realised that it wasn't enough. That an the fact he trusted the wrong manager with the money.

Football is an incredibly closed shop.

That said, this club had been mismanaged on many levels for a long time and that has led to our stagnation. There is more we can do to modernise and I'm fairly confident we have goody people in to make the correct changes. At our level you have to gamble with your recruitment.

 

I'm not suggesting we should be challenging for the title. Far from it. This isn't even to do with Lerner having a go and failing. That we got so close to 4th and then screwed it up is pretty reflective of the club's attitude and standing for over 15 years now.

[ROTTERDAM1982]

Good post.

 

Theres numerous factors, and a lot has changed in the last few years.I would argue that RL had  ago, then realised it was futile, because it was with the wrong manager, and then lost interest.

 

 Sherwood seems to have revived a bit of interest, but i doubt if the big investment will be there until/if we get taken over.I expect we are in a position now where we have to keep buying players like Okores, Gil, CB, Sylla etc, and hope that they turn out to be diamonds.We can't compete with Chelsk, Arse etc, but we have to keep trying to unearth diamonds to get a bit closer.

[Mantis]

Good post.

 

Theres numerous factors, and a lot has changed in the last few years.I would argue that RL had  ago, then realised it was futile, because it was with the wrong manager, and then lost interest.

 

 Sherwood seems to have revived a bit of interest, but i doubt if the big investment will be there until/if we get taken over.I expect we are in a position now where we have to keep buying players like Okores, Gil, CB, Sylla etc, and hope that they turn out to be diamonds.We can't compete with Chelsk, Arse etc, but we have to keep trying to unearth diamonds to get a bit closer.

Okore was one of Europe's top young defensive prospects - he was highly sought after and we did well to land him. Being out for basically all of last season was a huge blow.

 

Agree with the rest of your post though.

[VillaChris]

Big problem is so many of our youth players over the last 5 years have come into a team in the premier league that loses more games than it wins. Weimann, Clark, Baker etc, they've all made what 100 appearences for us now and I dread to see what their winning ratios look like.

 

So they're used to losing, the senior players we have are used to losing and the players we bring then become used to losing.

 

Take Tom Cleverley. He should have a winning mentality coming from Man. United which should rub off on the players here but I think one of the things people said about his time there is that he just didn't have the self belief to belong there and we've seen that at times with him here.

[StefanAVFC]

Big problem is so many of our youth players over the last 5 years have come into a team in the premier league that loses more games than it wins. Weimann, Clark, Baker etc, they've all made what 100 appearences for us now and I dread to see what their winning ratios look like.

 

So they're used to losing, the senior players we have are used to losing and the players we bring then become used to losing.

 

Take Tom Cleverley. He should have a winning mentality coming from Man. United which should rub off on the players here but I think one of the things people said about his time there is that he just didn't have the self belief to belong there and we've seen that at times with him here.

 

This is exactly it

[Spoony]

But to become winners you now need to fork out hundreds of millions, which we don't have. I think Sherwood was being a bit more specific in that the current crop of players have just been mentally shot to bits by the past few years. I wouldn't have described us as "losers" under Martin O'Neill. Some terrible management choices (Heskey when we needed someone like Bent, fielding stupid teams in the Europa League, etc.) saw us fall down in that era but I wouldn't say we were losers. We were still a force at that time and teams were scared to play us.

 

However I agree post-MON. McLeish and Lambert brought in such dour, poisonous approaches that the club and the players seem sapped of all fight. We got it back a bit under Sherwood but we seem to have reverted back. I'm confident however that, given a bit of time and investment, under Sherwood we'll be fighters. However, I just don't see that investment coming...

[StefanAVFC]

We were losers under MON because we didn't achieve what we should have.

 

We were comfortably 3rd with not long of the season to go and we threw it away because we didn't have the belief that we would actually do it. 

 

I don't buy that you need millions to instil a winning mentality. Swansea are a club of winners and they haven't thrown money around.

Edited May 31, 2015 by StefanAVFC

[lloydxmas]

I just hope we can shift these players because loser squad sounds way worse than the bomb squad.

Who in their right mind would buy these mentally shot players anyway? We're better of just cancelling their contracts, luckily most of them aren't on mega bucks.

[P3te]

We're better of just cancelling their contracts.

That's cost us exactly the same as keeping them for the duration of their contracts, but we'd never be able to use them if we were stuck, so how exactly do you maintain we're better of cancelling their contacts?

[Spoony]

We were losers under MON because we didn't achieve what we should have.

 

We were comfortably 3rd with not long of the season to go and we threw it away because we didn't have the belief that we would actually do it. 

 

I don't buy that you need millions to instil a winning mentality. Swansea are a club of winners and they haven't thrown money around.

But I don't think that's because of a losing mentality, I think poor management decisions were the reason we threw it all away and we were just totally running out of steam as we never rotated and always played players in weird positions.

 

With regards to Swansea, it's a good point but I think the fans have something to do with that. They love their club and the whole atmosphere there always seems to be one of endless enthusiasm, pride and belief. I think we had something similar under MON but we certainly don't have it now. Rightly or wrongly we the fans are always frustrated and angry because of our history and where we think we should be in English football and it does show and it makes the club a terrible place to be. There's such a negative atmosphere around Aston Villa these days and it's bound to affect the players.

[StefanAVFC]

 

We were losers under MON because we didn't achieve what we should have.

 

We were comfortably 3rd with not long of the season to go and we threw it away because we didn't have the belief that we would actually do it. 

 

I don't buy that you need millions to instil a winning mentality. Swansea are a club of winners and they haven't thrown money around.

But I don't think that's because of a losing mentality, I think poor management decisions were the reason we threw it all away and we were just totally running out of steam as we never rotated and always played players in weird positions.

 

 

Definitely factors but still think there's been a losing belief here for years

[CrackpotForeigner]

We were losers under MON because we didn't achieve what we should have.

 

We were comfortably 3rd with not long of the season to go and we threw it away because we didn't have the belief that we would actually do it. 

 

More because we lost the biggest winner we've had in our side since Paul McGrath. You can date our decline to the minute: Laursen's injury.

 

Fwiw I agree that the world isn't divided into winners and losers, but Laursen was a very special player to have, and not just because he could defend.

Edited May 31, 2015 by CrackpotForeigner

[theboyangel]

To get our club in a winning mentality we need better players and win games- simple as that.

 

However, this shouldn't just be for the first team set-up.

 

Only a few years back our academy won the next-gen competition and were always there or there abouts in their U21s league and cups.

 

This appears to have dropped off considerably.

 

We need to invest in the youth set-up, getting the best young lads we can into the academy. This will help 'win' more youth competitions and breed a mentality that when old enough/good enough the younger players will continue in the first team.

 

I like what TS has done so far, getting the youth to train alongside the first team to show them 'what they could achieve' if they work hard.

 

Obviously this would not be an overnight fix but something that could be achieved over several seasons.

Edited May 31, 2015 by theboyangel

[jasoncb]

A winning mentality has to start from the top otherwise its pointless. We need a chairman with a vision and with the ability to take a loss at times to get anywhere near the top 6. The only people at the club who show they can achieve this is Sherwood, Delph, Benteke they definitely fit that mould at the current time. I think Okore and Grealish could achieve this also but this is simply not enough.

 

If we do indeed get sold I hope they keep Sherwood and let him mould a team. He really is our best chance of escaping this loop of despair.

[Nabby]

 

We were losers under MON because we didn't achieve what we should have.

 

We were comfortably 3rd with not long of the season to go and we threw it away because we didn't have the belief that we would actually do it. 

 

I don't buy that you need millions to instil a winning mentality. Swansea are a club of winners and they haven't thrown money around.

But I don't think that's because of a losing mentality, I think poor management decisions were the reason we threw it all away and we were just totally running out of steam as we never rotated and always played players in weird positions.

 

With regards to Swansea, it's a good point but I think the fans have something to do with that. They love their club and the whole atmosphere there always seems to be one of endless enthusiasm, pride and belief. I think we had something similar under MON but we certainly don't have it now. Rightly or wrongly we the fans are always frustrated and angry because of our history and where we think we should be in English football and it does show and it makes the club a terrible place to be. There's such a negative atmosphere around Aston Villa these days and it's bound to affect the players.

 

 

 

When you spend 4/5 years battling relegation and breaking records for utter shitness along the way ( least goals scored , biggest ever loss etc ) it's hardly suprising the fan base has become somewhat toxic.I don't have the stats to hand but I imagine our record of games won at home over the last 5 years is truely horrific.The 3 teams that went down against them we recorded 2 wins.Fans need to do their bit and from when I have been to games  I have noticed alot of negativity , but they need something on the pitch to inspire them and we are rarely getting it ..

 

As for being losers ..in hindsight we were losers the minute we appointed MON.He was and is a relic of an old era who despite some good buys and a decent go int he league  his motivation skills eg paying average players high salaries wasn't ever going to work long term as we have found to our cost.That he left and the club continued to mess up with managerial appointments and signings just compounded the first initial failure.

[Xann]

...Heskey when we needed someone like Bent...

 

MON's biggest mistake.

 

Dreadful, dreadful decision.

 

Bent could have made Champs league qualification easy.

 

Though a nineteen stone Neil Shipperley would probably been more effective than Heskey.

 

I'm sure Ivanhoe's a lovely guy, but IMHO he was just an enormous, expensive albatross around the team's neck.

 

Shocking liabilty, useless **** clearing in the woods.

[Mantis]

Imagine if we'd bothered to scout abroad under O'Neill.