Brumstopdogs Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, villa4europe said: came to post the exact same thing before reading the explanation I was looking for "im not **** leaving" Best gif ever! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 16 minutes ago, bickster said: Who was that then? It certainly wasn't me. I was merely defining what it wasn't So the stuff about the bomb was completely irrelevant then. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 minute ago, HanoiVillan said: So the stuff about the bomb was completely irrelevant then. Not if you read it, no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, bickster said: Not if you read it, no I've read it several times, and my conclusion is that you think lying to say he would have detonated the bomb would have been better leadership. If you mean something else, please feel free to explain it more clearly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted December 16, 2019 Bluffing at poker with all your cards face up is a bad idea 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted December 16, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted December 16, 2019 You don't use nukes to bluff. The point of having them is to not use them. If one is used against you, you've lost already. The debate about them with respect to Corbyn is stupid. As it would with any leader. But it's Corbyn so it's worse than child murder. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 19 hours ago, hippo said: Problem is - you can join labour for £3 now - and vote for the next leader early next year. That's open to so much abuse its incredible - that's the reason for the delay - to recruit a load of young angrys - who back Rayner/RBL The people who have the final say on the leader - needn't even be labour supporters - and even if they are they are likely to be the enthused militants. (Corbyn didn't just win the labour leadership - he cake walked it ) Unfortunately moderates are less enthused to join a polictal party - so voting members are far removed from the working class people they wish to represent. I really believe we will see some sort of split and new party formed. How successful who knows .. Surely if centre left moderates don’t want momentum types taking over the party they should also pay the £3 and vote Labour back towards the centre? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 hour ago, LondonLax said: Surely if centre left moderates don’t want momentum types taking over the party they should also pay the £3 and vote Labour back towards the centre? Nothing to stop Tories / Brex Ltd paying the £3 and voting for the angry brigade either, they did it last time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 16 minutes ago, bickster said: Nothing to stop Tories / Brex Ltd paying the £3 and voting for the angry brigade either, they did it last time. And that’s democracy at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted December 16, 2019 11 minutes ago, LondonLax said: And that’s democracy at work. its not really though is it but its Labour's dilema Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 1 hour ago, bickster said: its not really though is it but its Labour's dilema Either way it suits momentum ! - they aren't interested in winning election s - only winning the labour leadership election. If the votes come from Tory's in disguise they aren't bothered it suits them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 hours ago, LondonLax said: Surely if centre left moderates don’t want momentum types taking over the party they should also pay the £3 and vote Labour back towards the centre? Because the extreme left have more enthusiasm - it's an easier sell ..... Moderate politics is a bit more mundane. People who would vote for a moderate labour government are ordinary people not polictal enthusiasts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 2 hours ago, bickster said: Nothing to stop Tories / Brex Ltd paying the £3 and voting for the angry brigade either, they did it last time. Corbyn would have still won without those £3 voters at it turned out , I believe ? bit didn’t they subsequently scrap voting for leader rights on the £3 membership ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post sidcow Posted December 16, 2019 VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted December 16, 2019 22 hours ago, bickster said: McDonnel today was blaming the media for their relentless personal attacks on Corbyn, he's spinning a yarn there, I didn't see one. No dressed like a tramp, hardly even a mention of the allotment. It's a delusional retelling of very recent history It's actually quite weird to come out and totally admit the disaster was on you 100% and you own it, then go on and blame Brexit and the Press...... So its not actually your fault at all. They just can't see their vision is flawed. Local news interviewed some working class bloke in a cafe in West Brom who had voted Labour all his life and voted Tory. He said he wanted Brexit but that it was much more than that and he felt Corbyn was trying to take the country backwards 20 years. Their very core target audience just didn't want, in fact positively rejected their ideals. People are pissed off with trains but don't want to see hundreds of billions pissed away buying them back, or care about municipal banks. And most people I spoke to knew perfectly well there just wasn't the money to achieve most of the promises and realised the country would end up bankrupt again needing rinse and repeat austerity to sort it out Also this thing about taxing the rich. It's just not possible. France tried that a few years ago and the rich all just buggered off so you end up collecting LESS tax. This is a Global economy now with much freedom of movement. Even a mid ranking banker can move to Frankfurt or New York if they feel hounded. It was all just so wrong and if they continue to blame Brexit and the evil press they will be out in the cold for many more years. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted December 16, 2019 31 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: bit didn’t they subsequently scrap voting for leader rights on the £3 membership Dunno and in reality I don't care much either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 I think they cap it so that you can only vote if you are a member from a certain date, usually after the leadership election is announced though. I shouldn't have thought that there would be that many people who will be bothered enough to pay £4 I think it is a month in order to try to sabotage a leadership vote. It is worth saying that Labour have a large membership, I might be wrong but I think just over half a million. If you add in the union member votes then you'd have to have quite a few people bothered enough to try to sabotage the vote to make much of a difference. I can't understand why the other side would do that anyway tbh. The candidates being touted at the moment are frighteningly uninspiring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 47 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Corbyn would have still won without those £3 voters at it turned out , I believe ? bit didn’t they subsequently scrap voting for leader rights on the £3 membership ? No. They put a window on it. So you couldn't join as a £3 member towards the end of the leadership election......... But you could pay a one off £25 - and get a vote at anytime. !!!!! (Sort of decisions you get when everyone has a vote on everything !) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted December 16, 2019 Moderator Share Posted December 16, 2019 4 hours ago, Chindie said: The debate about them with respect to Corbyn is stupid. As it would with any leader. Not really. What Corbyn wanted to say is that he'd unilaterally disarm our nuclear arsenal but he couldn't say that as it would have been absolutely pounced on. Instead he came up with some fudge answer which made him look stupid. His actual answer was in itself dishonest (to himself) and it came across as exactly that because everyone knows what he really wanted. He's not above being dishonest, he's walked back that many policy pronouncements in days (repaying student finance springs to mind straight away), that it became part of his persona. Policy decisions seemed to be made up on the spot and then it would be pointed out that his idea was imprctical / impossible / idiotic or whatever and a clarification would come a day or so later or they'd never seem to mention it again. People saw right through that He just really wasn't that good at being the Labour leader 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted December 16, 2019 Share Posted December 16, 2019 24 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said: The candidates being touted at the moment are frighteningly uninspiring. Tbf you could have said the same about the Tory one .. and Lib Dem’s for that matter ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted December 17, 2019 Moderator Share Posted December 17, 2019 9 hours ago, Chindie said: You don't use nukes to bluff. The point of having them is to not use them. If one is used against you, you've lost already. The debate about them with respect to Corbyn is stupid. As it would with any leader. But it's Corbyn so it's worse than child murder. It is all a bit silly, yes. The thing I struggle with, with his answer is not that as a human he wouldn't press the button and retaliation and kill 100s of thousands, millions maybe. I mean I wouldn't either. As you say by then you've lost already, the world has. I guess he's thought about Nukes and decided, no, never. But because he wants (wanted) votes from people, Labour has a policy of retaining trident. Trying to ride 2 horses at the same time is not a good look. "No I'd never ever use it, and I will get rid of Trident" is principled and honest. "No I'd never ever use it, but I'm gonna keep on paying for it" is unprincipled and open to ridicule. It's signalling untrustworthiness to voters and is an open goal for opponents. So, the difficulty he had, anyone as PM has, is that the job of the PM who has at his/her disposal a nuclear deterrent is to (while we have it) ensure it is effective as a deterrent. As such answering the question "would you be prepared to use it" means that you have to rule out the answer "No, never". And there are ways to answer the question without betraying your personal beliefs, yet still performing your role as leader of the country (or candidate for that position). @Risso provided the source for one answer. "As PM, I would be as prepared to perform my duty to protect the Country as have all previous Prime Ministers. A deterrent is not a deterrent if your enemy know you'll never use it and from that the answer to your question is self-evident. But I would never use it first..." He could then go on to point out the ludicrous nature of the question, how it leaves out all context or whatever. He could further point to Labour's policy to retain a nuclear deterrent and so on. I mean that's just a quickly dashed off line from me, I'm sure smarter people than I in his team could have thought about a better version. There are many alternatives. He's just a bit dim. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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