tonyh29 Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 24 minutes ago, bickster said: Actually, I thought he was the leader of a democratic party, whose policy is decided by the membership, see Trident for differences between Corbyn's beliefs / Party Policy The democratic Labour Party ... how many people have been sacked from his cabinet for disagreeing with him ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted August 28, 2017 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2017 Just now, tonyh29 said: The democratic Labour Party ... how many people have been sacked from his cabinet for disagreeing with him ? Maybe my sarcasm didn't come across that well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 28, 2017 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2017 12 hours ago, peterms said: This is the kind of thing I mean by the danger of trying to move too fast. 8 Labour MPs were pro brexit and 220 (I think is the right number) for remain. "Backlash" is something of a misnomer, perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, blandy said: 8 Labour MPs were pro brexit and 220 (I think is the right number) for remain. "Backlash" is something of a misnomer, perhaps? That word seems to come from John Mann's briefing to the Guardian. John is never knowingly understated. Though there will be many pro-remain Labour MPs who are wary of being seen to argue to overturn the referendum result before there is a discernible shift in public opinion, because many of their constituents would be upset by that. They might want party policy to shift in the direction it is now doing, but I would expect them to be urging caution about the pace of change. Less a backlash than a brake, perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 28, 2017 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2017 53 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: They are still pro Brexit. They just want 48 months to do it, not 24. The odd thing is that they're (as individuals) not pro Brexit at all. As I said above, there's about 8 of them that are, and 220 that voted to remain. Obvoiously there's the Corbyn thing, with him personally being a Leave type. But the whole thing they've been following of keeping their heads down "because democracy" is starting to look like a mistake. As the tories make more and more of a mess of things, maybe Labour can be brave enough to start saying what we know. People were lied to, to get them to vote for what the right wing tory clowns are obsessed with, and that the problems people have are not because of Europe or the EU, but because of UK Government choices. Yes there are flaws with the EU, but there are chasms with the plan (such as it is) the tories are pushing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 To be fair I was waiting for Labour to try to actually distance themselves from the Tory stance - in my opinion it's still not enough. I'm not sure if I'm yet to meet a pro brexit Labour supporter, so how they're still for it sort of baffles me.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 28, 2017 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2017 10 minutes ago, peterms said: Though there will be many pro-remain Labour MPs who are wary of being seen to argue to overturn the referendum result before there is a discernible shift in public opinion, because many of their constituents would be upset by that. They might want party policy to shift in the direction it is now doing, but I would expect them to be urging caution about the pace of change. Less a backlash than a brake, perhaps. At the moment, and accepting your earlier point about moving cautiously, to date, until this recent tweak, Labour has in terms of action, been supporting the tories on Brexit, while talking in fudgespeak. What they should have been doing IMO is this: 2 minutes ago, magnkarl said: I was waiting for Labour to try to actually distance themselves from the Tory stance So it's not necessarily about shouting "remain! remain!" from the top of the trees. but about opposing the incompetent actions and "extreme" approach of the tories, while leaving enough wriggle room to allow them to say "it looks like the result of the tory negotiations is so dreadful we need to stop them from going through with it" 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 1 minute ago, blandy said: So it's not necessarily about shouting "remain! remain!" from the top of the trees. but about opposing the incompetent actions and "extreme" approach of the tories, while leaving enough wriggle room to allow them to say "it looks like the result of the tory negotiations is so dreadful we need to stop them from going through with it" I think that's the position they are trying to move towards, while saying they accept the result of the referendum. It would have been simpler to say from the outset that there would need to be a second referendum once the terms of exit had become clear, but they seem to have felt that was too risky. It would certainly have meant several years of nonsense from the tory press about refusing to recognise democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted August 28, 2017 Moderator Share Posted August 28, 2017 1 minute ago, peterms said: I think that's the position they are trying to move towards Hopefully. It's where they should have been ages ago, but as I may have previously mentioned, they're not a well led party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted August 28, 2017 Share Posted August 28, 2017 Just now, blandy said: as I may have previously mentioned Did you say that? I must have missed it... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 5 hours ago, StefanAVFC said: With 48% inside trying to press the brake pedal, we would have a bit more stopping distance :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrenm Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 This is poor from McDonnell. Everyone knows what Hammond meant. To keep the moral highground you need to correctly choose your arguments. Labour’s Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell told HuffPost UK: “It is shameful that the millionaire chancellor Philip Hammond feels comfortable boasting about how he and Tory MPs have never had more money in the bank, while cutting the pay of nurses, teachers and police officers. “He is already thought to be one of the richest MPs in parliament and in March he point-blank refused my request to publish his tax return. He should come clean and tell us what he earns and from where.” http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/uk_59b15e62e4b0dfaafcf5fdc5/amp What Hammond actually said: One Tory MP who was present said: “There was a lot of stuff about students. He said look at us, no mortgage, everybody with a pension and never had more money in the current account. You compare that to the younger generation, if they go to university they are hit with debt … and there was a need to address that. However, I thoroughly disagree with this bit “But he basically sold how important the economy is going to be. He said if you want to see what a Corbyn Britain would look like, well, just get on the plane to Caracas.” No, get on a plane to Denmark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, darrenm said: No, get on a plane to Denmark Are we looking at the same country? Denmark is ruled by a coalition government with Conservatives, the Liberal Alliance and the main right-centre party Venstre. I'd love to see Corbyn work with any of the above kind of people though, it might make some of his shadow cabinet more palatable. Also trying to implement a system close to the Danish system in our country with it being the way it is with the two leading parties is a pipe dream. Not that I'd mind the rich paying 50% tax like in the Nordics, but I just don't see it happening here. I just wish Corbyn/Sanders et al. would stop banding Scandinavian countries around when they're both far from the socialist paradises that they claim them to be. Norway has had a centre right government since 2013, and Sweden's green-social democratic coalition government (in power since 2016) is the weakest minority government Sweden has ever seen after a centre-right government had been in charge since 2006. I'd be all for Corbyn being willing to work with other parties like in Scandinavia though, that'd actually make parties like Lib Dems, Greens etc matter. Maybe if the Norwegian Labour party wins the Norwegian elections the day after tomorrow with their coalition he could be able to use them as an example. Edited September 8, 2017 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 2 Corbynites elected into the labour committee today , the result of a lot of work by momentum by all accounts ? is this another step towards the death of the Labour Party or another step towards Corbyn winning the next election ( to be clear I mean winning in the true sense of coming first rather than winning by coming second ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dAVe80 Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 52 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: 2 Corbynites elected into the labour committee today , the result of a lot of work by momentum by all accounts ? is this another step towards the death of the Labour Party or another step towards Corbyn winning the next election ( to be clear I mean winning in the true sense of coming first rather than winning by coming second ) It was a pretty comprehensive victory. 2 to 1, with both candidates getting around 100k votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 1 hour ago, tonyh29 said: 2 Corbynites elected into the labour committee today , the result of a lot of work by momentum by all accounts ? is this another step towards the death of the Labour Party or another step towards Corbyn winning the next election ( to be clear I mean winning in the true sense of coming first rather than winning by coming second ) It's nothing new. NEC elections always involve candidates putting out statements, political groupings forming slates and encouraging their supporters to vote for some candidates over others. It's been like that for many many years. Some years the left win, some years the right (sorry, the "centre") win. No big deal. Might slightly reduce the amount of undermining of Corbyn by the hard right, just on practical and logistical grounds. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 The tory / DUP government want to pass a law where Ministers such as Fox and Johnson can change the law without reference to parliament. Seven Labour MP's voted in favour. I think that's me done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: The tory / DUP government want to pass a law where Ministers such as Fox and Johnson can change the law without reference to parliament. Seven Labour MP's voted in favour. I think that's me done. This Brexit business is toxic and divisive. Some Labour MPs are terrified of anything that could be portrayed as going against 'the will of the people' and upset constituents. But by rebelling they strengthen the legitimacy of the minority government. I doubt by the time of the next election it'll be an issue, most people will have forgotten and will be campaigning on completely different issues. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: The tory / DUP government want to pass a law where Ministers such as Fox and Johnson can change the law without reference to parliament. Seven Labour MP's voted in favour. I think that's me done. No surprise to see that absolute pillock John Mann amongst them: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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