The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[colhint]

I think it wouldn't be a good thing to buy back PFI at government  set prices. 

On one hand they would be saying more money for Public sector workers and on the other bugger you lot with private pensions.

[dAVe80]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

At a time when the world it seems is in a complete mess, we've got a governement of absolute efftards and an opposition of ludicrous Cult followers

Hmm... I think it's more than a little unfair referring to Labour members as a ‘ludicrous Cult’ (assuming you mean members follow the cult of Jeremy?). For my money, Corbyn is the catalyst for something much larger. He’s the figure head that’s united the left, and in doing so has created a network of party activists and supporters, working every day to install a Labour government, and oppose the Tories at every possible opportunity. Just speaking from personal experience, I see party members fighting for the NHS, the disabled, workers’ rights, the homeless, and the general poor and disenfranchised every day, and they were inspired to do so, by the brand of politics on offer from Jeremy and the party. These are not all just SWP, Communist Party, Socialist Party stalwarts. These are everyday people, living, and having to deal with Tory austerity on a daily basis. Yes they support, and in some cases even love Corbyn, but he’s not the be all and end all of the movement. He is however the reason some are doing what they are, and will probably carry on doing so, long after Jeremy is no longer leader. Myself included. 

Whether you agree with Jeremy or not, whether you're a Labour supporter or not, you must concede the mobilisation of grassroots support is something pretty special, and although there's still a very long way to go, the movement is starting to really to make a mark on UK politics.        

[Xann]

37 minutes ago, blandy said:

... As an example, say, my utility bill is too high. Do you

a) Spend 100s of billions nationalising the utilitiesCompanies, then set the price of gas, once you've bought the industry, to a lower level - a process that would take several years, and reduce the income to the Gov't from the industry it would then own, or do you

b.) Regulate immediately to limit the charges the utilities can set?

One is quick, cheap and effective. The other is slow, expensive and counter -productive.

I'm going for c.) I'd call in academics and progressive(!) industry and rewrite the book for the long term.

Pay me, and I'll come back with an initial list of recommendations Though I think you'll have seen one or two in previous discussions here?

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

Third sector organisation visitor.

I'm suprised you didn't tell us a couple of months ago that you'd made the application and were attending.

[chrisp65]

I'm just happy everyone managed to keep their seats.

Unusual around both Magna and Labour.

 

 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, dAVe80 said:

Hmm... I think it's more than a little unfair referring to Labour members as a ‘ludicrous Cult’ (assuming you mean members follow the cult of Jeremy?). For my money, Corbyn is the catalyst for something much larger. He’s the figure head that’s united the left, and in doing so has created a network of party activists and supporters, working every day to install a Labour government, and oppose the Tories at every possible opportunity. Just speaking from personal experience, I see party members fighting for the NHS, the disabled, workers’ rights, the homeless, and the general poor and disenfranchised every day, and they were inspired to do so, by the brand of politics on offer from Jeremy and the party. These are not all just SWP, Communist Party, Socialist Party stalwarts. These are everyday people, living, and having to deal with Tory austerity on a daily basis. Yes they support, and in some cases even love Corbyn, but he’s not the be all and end all of the movement. He is however the reason some are doing what they are, and will probably carry on doing so, long after Jeremy is no longer leader. Myself included. 

Whether you agree with Jeremy or not, whether you're a Labour supporter or not, you must concede the mobilisation of grassroots support is something pretty special, and although there's still a very long way to go, the movement is starting to really to make a mark on UK politics.        

Yeah, probably a bit unfair, Dave.  You're right. There's no doubt a whole bunch of good people who feel emboldened or optimistic or involved and all that "because Jeremy Corbyn". People who will campaign for good things.

My problem I suppose is that I see the behaviour of his fellow travellers (from a distance, mostly) - people like Len McLuskey, my Union leader and a number of union people lower down the food chain. These are not people who are going to make things better for anyone.  They're blinkered, egotistical, money grabbing control freaks who set rules for others to adhere to, but not themselves. People who don't do what they should for the people who pay their wages.

I see the return to the 70s ideology, the Corbynite "solidarity"  with murderers and terrorists, the cynical manipulative methods, the double standards and all the rest of it, and just find it all utterly repulsive - so far from what is advertised on the tin that I can't be having anything to do with it.

And I'm not any more impressed with the people who have challenged Corbyn - Owen Smith was it? and those types. They don't seem to offer any more hope. I think there are good Labour MPs, but they all seem to get disciplined by Corbyn (unless they're his mates) or have just retreated into the background and kept their heads down.

From my vantage point, the Tories are even worse than the last tories (though hampered by their own utter incompetence and in-fighting) and there's no effective alternative. It's pretty depressing.

[magnkarl]

40 minutes ago, snowychap said:

I'm suprised you didn't tell us a couple of months ago that you'd made the application and were attending.

Not quite sure what you're aiming at here, but let's leave it at that. It's not hard to get a pass for any political conference - it's not like getting a visa to go to North Korea. There's a whole host of ways you can get your pass if you look into it, but I get given mine yearly as the organisation that I volunteer for gets about 70 passes a year. 

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, dAVe80 said:

and oppose the Tories at every possible opportunity.

didn't he tell his party to vote with them on the Brexit thingy ..and then sack all those that didn't from the benches ?

[tonyh29]

23 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Not quite sure what you're aiming at here, but let's leave it at that. It's not hard to get a pass for any political conference - it's not like getting a visa to go to North Korea. There's a whole host of ways you can get your pass if you look into it, but I get given mine yearly as the organisation that I volunteer for gets about 70 passes a year. 

Pedant time but  it isn't at all difficult to get a Visa for North Korea , you just apply and they say Yes  ... or No if you are daft enough to tick the box that says you are an American journalist

[dAVe80]

34 minutes ago, blandy said:

Yeah, probably a bit unfair, Dave.  You're right. There's no doubt a whole bunch of good people who feel emboldened or optimistic or involved and all that "because Jeremy Corbyn". People who will campaign for good things.

My problem I suppose is that I see the behaviour of his fellow travellers (from a distance, mostly) - people like Len McLuskey, my Union leader and a number of union people lower down the food chain. These are not people who are going to make things better for anyone.  They're blinkered, egotistical, money grabbing control freaks who set rules for others to adhere to, but not themselves. People who don't do what they should for the people who pay their wages.

I see the return to the 70s ideology, the Corbynite "solidarity"  with murderers and terrorists, the cynical manipulative methods, the double standards and all the rest of it, and just find it all utterly repulsive - so far from what is advertised on the tin that I can't be having anything to do with it.

And I'm not any more impressed with the people who have challenged Corbyn - Owen Smith was it? and those types. They don't seem to offer any more hope. I think there are good Labour MPs, but they all seem to get disciplined by Corbyn (unless they're his mates) or have just retreated into the background and kept their heads down.

From my vantage point, the Tories are even worse than the last tories (though hampered by their own utter incompetence and in-fighting) and there's no effective alternative. It's pretty depressing.

I think I'm clear on your stance on Corbyn, and although I disagree I respect your opinion. I'm no lover of McLuskey (I saw him sitting in First Class, on the train journey back to London, after the Durham Gala! What's wrong with the floor outside a toilet, like where Jez sits!? ), but as the leader of one of the biggest Union going, he needs to be kept on side for the time being.

I will say that one thing that conference is proving, is that Jeremy is totally on board with the party becoming more member lead. More time is being given for delegated from the CLPs to talk, and it's they who are setting the agenda. If you worry that Corbyn has too much control, the measures he is wanting to put in place are contradicting that a little.

Not a pop (and I understand not everyone has the time to give to getting involved), but if anyone is dissatisfied with the current state of play, my advise is to do something about it. Join a party, or start your own party, organize locally, and set the agenda. Change it yourself. That's pretty much what Momentum have done.

[PompeyVillan]

Of course you can renationalising utilities, transport etc and do the Brexit thing. Corbyn said on the telebox with Andew Marr that he expects it would take 10 years to implement his vision. It would be draft to expect any of it to happen overnight.

I would also ask, what sort of an opposition would offer no real alternative to the mess the Conservatives have made of the country? Surely that's their job. 

Labour have a long term vision, it's up to them to sell it. Whilst the country are rightly up in arms about public services and public service workers being shafted, they're going to push their (apparently quite popular) ideas about renationalisation. Was it you @blandy that made an excellent post about humans believing narratives and not facts? Labour are spinning their narrative. I personally get tired of being told that we can't afford 'this' or cant afford 'that', things I think are worthwhile, then chuck loads of money at weapons, wars and political bribes. So are many others. 

Whilst the Conservatives seem to bounce from one disaster to another, it seems Labour have an honest vision for the future of the country. 

May claims to help the "just about managing" whilst simultaneously poking them in the eye. The Foreign Secretary is in La La land, and David Davis can't make head nor tail of what Brexit actually is. Mind you, his guidance has been 'Brexit means Brexit' and 'No deal is better than a good deal'. No wonder he's confused. 

/Rant

Anyway ending PFI contracts is part of that long term vision, which is essentially the tax paying public don't get ripped off in aid of private profit. As always the devil is in the detail, and not being in government makes it a lot easier to make grand, sweeping pledges.

[blandy]

20 minutes ago, dAVe80 said:

one thing that conference is proving, is that Jeremy is totally on board with the party becoming more member lead

Where it suits him....It's all still stage managed from the top. No we're not talking about Brexit, no we're not letting him or her speak.... 

20 minutes ago, dAVe80 said:

if anyone is dissatisfied with the current state of play, my advise is to do something about it

Yeah, good advice. In my own tiny way, that's what I've done.

[dAVe80]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

didn't he tell his party to vote with them on the Brexit thingy ..and then sack all those that didn't from the benches ?

I'm talking about the broader membership, rather than the PLP.

[tonyh29]

52 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said:

it seems Labour have an honest vision for the future of the country. 

I get tribalism and disliking the Tory's etc ... but that statement takes it all a step to far ..

I wouldn't trust a single word that comes out of any of their lips ,  but especially Corbyn as he's proven he will say anything to get elected .. that's not an endorsement for the Tory party , but at least we all know they are lying and aren't pretending otherwise

[tonyh29]

19 minutes ago, dAVe80 said:

I'm talking about the broader membership, rather than the PLP.

so in other words the members are doing exactly the opposite of what Corbyn wants them to do

[HanoiVillan]

53 minutes ago, blandy said:

Where it suits him....It's all still stage managed from the top. No we're not talking about Brexit, no we're not letting him or her speak.... 

You (and I) have done plenty of calling Corbyn inept, but isn't this a bit too much? We can hardly blame him for a crap media image on the one hand, and then blame him for stage-management on the other. 

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, dAVe80 said:

Not a pop (and I understand not everyone has the time to give to getting involved), but if anyone is dissatisfied with the current state of play, my advise is to do something about it. Join a party, or start your own party, organize locally, and set the agenda. Change it yourself. That's pretty much what Momentum have done.

I would most certainly agree with this, however the effect that you can have in a parliamentary system like ours is pretty minuscule. It's always going to be Labour and Conservatives with some side roles for smaller parties like DUP, Lib Dems, UKIP, SNP etc. It'd take something massive to change that (possibly Brexit?). I don't think momentum has anything to pat themselves on the back for - yes they've engaged but Labour are still far off being in government in what they claimed to be a "ground breaking election". By the way some of the speakers at the conference spoke today I'd say that some of them think they're already in government. 

Edited September 26, 2017 by magnkarl

[dAVe80]

3 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

so in other words the members are doing exactly the opposite of what Corbyn wants them to do

No, we'd never do that to our dear leader. We don't want to get sent to the Gulag!

[PompeyVillan]

18 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I get tribalism and disliking the Tory's etc ... but that statement takes it all a step to far ..

I wouldn't trust a single word that comes out of any of their lips ,  but especially Corbyn as he's proven he will say anything to get elected .. that's not an endorsement for the Tory party , but at least we all know they are lying and aren't pretending otherwise

I actually edited my post and removed 'honest' because I knew it would draw flak.

I think the Labour vision is honest, It's not just Corbyns vision either by the way. He's the figurehead, but without the support, the vision is nothing. 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

You (and I) have done plenty of calling Corbyn inept, but isn't this a bit too much? We can hardly blame him for a crap media image on the one hand, and then blame him for stage-management on the other. 

There's a double edged sword (two double edged swords) isn't there. You correctly pick up that I think he's inept, and highlight the contrast (I assume) with stage managing who's allowed to speak at the conference. You're right, perhaps. Double edged sword....

But...

"Jeremy Corbyn's different, he's not like the others, he doesn't spin and manipulate - he's open to debate and honest discussion. Oh, Not allowing a Brexit debate, not allowing certain people with different viewpoints to speak...um...er...

also double edged sword.

My point of view is that no he's not different. He's the same as the rest of them. And I would criticise any/all of them for over-done control freakery where they exhibit it. There's management to ensure smooth running and various points of view to be put across and then there's basically blocking subjects or speakers you don't like. Whether that's ineptitude or just being a massive hypocrit, I'll let you decide