The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[magnkarl]

15 minutes ago, snowychap said:

So you are saying that all of those people whom you've named (included below for reference) have made parallels between their hate for Israel and hate for Jewish people?

How about naming the junior figures, too? Just so we have the full list of the people you're making these comments about.

I am saying that all of the above figures have in some way shape or form been anti-Semitic. The fact that Livingstone is still part of the party is probably the most shocking thing of all. Half of Labour signed a letter criticizing the fact that he's still allowed to be part of Labour after repeated racist remarks.

Here's some of the junior people: James Elliott, Max Shanley, Tayyib Navaz & Bethany Barker.

Edited August 24, 2017 by magnkarl

[PompeyVillan]

Isn't the Shah thing about Rotherham victims?

[Chindie]

8 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said:

Isn't the Shah thing about Rotherham victims?

Less important than antisemitism.

[snowychap]

10 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I am saying that all of the above figures have in some way shape or form been anti-Semitic.

Actually, you said:

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

A lot of youth and some of our MP's who shall remain nameless has made parallels between their hate for Israel and hate for Jewish people

I asked why they shouldn't be named and you replied that you had a couple of posts up.

I just wanted to confirm that the people you mentioned in that post were the ones about whom you were saying the bit highlighted above.

Are you saying the same thing about the following people, too?

14 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Here's some of the junior people: James Elliott, Max Shanley, Tayyib Navaz & Bethany Barker.

 

[bickster]

28 minutes ago, snowychap said:

So you are saying that all of those people whom you've named (included below for reference) have made parallels between their hate for Israel and hate for Jewish people?

How about naming the junior figures, too? Just so we have the full list of the people you're making these comments about.

Livingstone? this is Ken Livingstone that has been suspended from the Labour Party for at least two years when his suspension runs out? I thought the Labour Party were doing nothing?

[peterms]

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

You can be anti-Israel state (I am - Netanyahu is a nationalistic !"#¤) without talking about Jews.

The very big complicating factor here is that, as I'm sure you know, the Israeli state seeks to conflate Israel, Zionism, and Judaism.

So they claim to speak for all Jews (to the anger of many), and they try to equate opposition to their racist apartheid state with anti-Semitism.  And they promote it as a state for Jews, conduct recruitment campaigns among Jews in other countries to come and join them and steal more Palestinian land, and deny rights to non-Jews.

In furtherance of this, they conduct well planned, funded, staffed campaigns to discredit people, especially politicians, who criticise their aggressive racism, by trying to make out they are antisemites.

It's all pretty sick.  Not in the yoof sense of sick.

[magnkarl]

21 minutes ago, peterms said:

The very big complicating factor here is that, as I'm sure you know, the Israeli state seeks to conflate Israel, Zionism, and Judaism.

So they claim to speak for all Jews (to the anger of many), and they try to equate opposition to their racist apartheid state with anti-Semitism.  And they promote it as a state for Jews, conduct recruitment campaigns among Jews in other countries to come and join them and steal more Palestinian land, and deny rights to non-Jews.

In furtherance of this, they conduct well planned, funded, staffed campaigns to discredit people, especially politicians, who criticise their aggressive racism, by trying to make out they are antisemites.

It's all pretty sick.  Not in the yoof sense of sick.

And I can't stand that either Peter. Israel doesn't speak for me. When some ignorant small minded person in my sphere (UK) acts like a racist idiot however, it is my problem.

There's 300.000 Jews in the UK, very few of us are Israeli and many of us are part of groups such as Jews for justice for Palestinians. What is really sad is that when someone brings Hitler into this discussion about a state in 2017, it is nothing short of a stab at the many (almost all) Jewish people in Europe that have had family killed in concentration camps by said little Austrian maniac.

When you start drawing a swastika on a david star you are crossing the line. It's like someone burning the English flag 50 years after 70% of the English population got massacred because they don't agree with what America is doing on the other side of the pond. British Jews aren't Israelis, they are British.

Edited August 24, 2017 by magnkarl

[snowychap]

3 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

When you start drawing a swastika on a david star

Who did that?

[bickster]

So, go on, it's only a short little bus ride from here to, criticism of Israel isn't anti-Semitic

And once you've made that little leap, you'll realise most of what people have said isn't anti-semitic at all

[tonyh29]

 

8 hours ago, Chindie said:

It's necessary for balance, an uninformed reader would look at this discussion and think this apparent antisemitism is an endemic problem unique to Labour, when the poll actually says anything but.

I thought that resulted In a  chorus of "ahh but" if you tried the same  in the Tory thread 

[tonyh29]

8 hours ago, darrenm said:

Absolutely some are **** stupid. And perhaps I'm not fully balanced in who I hold to account ;-) but it does seem to be the Tories who are especially out of touch on most things. The Labour stuff seems to be around quite hot social issues which people can see from multiple angles. Fwiw I think the train carriages for women only is certainly something to consider. I don't think it's realistic but there's a problem which needs to be solved certainly. Whereas the Tories continually derf about things like calling people n*ggers and turning off the evil internet until the elders release our hashtags.

It's good that you started you post by saying your opinions weren't balanced , saves me having to bother pointing out the obvious

[HanoiVillan]

4 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Cool. Do the research for yourself.

Livingstone, Shah, Walker, Wadsworth, Davis, Downing and not to forget Nazir Ahmed. That's just senior figures.

Okay, I've done the research. 

Shah and Livingstone we've done to death so I don't propose going over them. 

• Jackie Walker (who is Jewish, which doesn't preclude her from being an anti-semite but does suggest that there might be more to the story than meets the eye) was Vice Chair of Momentum and was suspended after a Facebook comment in which she stated that Jews were the 'chief financiers of the sugar and slave trade'. I don't know whether that is historically accurate or not (it sounds unrealistic to me, but then that's just a guess). She also got booed at a meeting when she said that Holocaust Memorial Day should be for victims of all ethnic violence (which it is, but she then clarified that the day 'in practice isn't circulated and advertised as such', which is more defensible). She apologised for any offence cause. 
• Marc Wadsworth is a long-time antiracist campaigner. I'm going to quote from his Wikipedia entry:

'At a launch, to which the media were invited, on 30 June 2016 for the publication of the Chakrabarti Inquiry report into allegations of antisemitism and racism in the Labour Party, Daily Telegraph journalist Kate McCann questioned Jeremy Corbyn about a "Momentum member" handing out a "leaflet" calling for the deselection of anti-Corbyn MPs. Wadsworth had earlier given McCann a copy of his "press release" at her request. In response to the provocative question about him, Wadsworth responded by publicly stating that he saw the Telegraph journalist handing a copy of the press release to Labour MP Ruth Smeeth, and thus claimed to have spotted who was "working hand in hand", a reference to anti-Corbyn Labour MPs colluding with the right-wing press. Smeeth expressed outrage and walked out, followed by McCann, leading to a storm of media controversy and a complaint from Smeeth that Wadsworth had used an antisemitic conspiracy theory to attack her; Wadsworth stated he did not know Smeeth is Jewish. Shami Chakrabarti, who chaired the meeting, claimed she had firmly told Wadsworth he had misused his opportunity to ask a question, and that Corbyn had agreed.'

Honestly, I don't think the claim that this represents anti-semitism is supportable. In any case, he was either suspended or expelled-then-downgraded-to-a-suspension the following day, which is hardly doing nothing. 

• Paul Davis was suspended by Labour due to accusations of bullying and intimidation towards Angela Eagle, not anti-semitism.
• Gerry Downing (who is in no way a 'senior figure') did both write and retweet some antisemitic comments in and from a magazine named Socialist Fight (well known!). He was suspended from the party on the same day the allegations against him became public. 
• Nazir Ahmed (who clearly was a senior figure) made some absolutely antisemitic (not to mention bonkers) comments in which he blamed Jewish media owners for reporting on his dangerous driving conviction. He resigned from the party, in pre-emption of a party disciplinary hearing. 

************************************************************************************

I repeat what I have said before. Approximately 10% of the UK population are happy to tell pollsters that they are anti-semitic. Labour has more than half a million members. It would be statistically very surprising if there were no anti-semites whatsoever in the party. I don't think anyone has argued that all Labour members or supporters are wonderful people; clearly, many of them are clearings in the woods. The more significant accusation is that Labour don't take allegations of anti-semitism seriously, but frankly there's scant evidence of that in these examples. 

[Chindie]

9 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

 

I thought that resulted In a  chorus of "ahh but" if you tried the same  in the Tory thread 

Different things.

On the one hand, a series of posts claiming a poll shows a party is antisemitic, when the poll actually shows other parties are considered worse. A large chunk of the story is being skipped to show a particular position that actually isn't the whole story.

On the other, posts that critique a party being batted away with appeals that the other team aren't saints either.

There's a subtle difference. One is misleading and requires balance to give the actual story. The other is petty misdirection to avoid the issue being raised.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Chindie

[magnkarl]

13 hours ago, bickster said:

Livingstone? this is Ken Livingstone that has been suspended from the Labour Party for at least two years when his suspension runs out? I thought the Labour Party were doing nothing?

Yeah, the same Livingstone who has repeatedly spouted anti-semitic and racist bs who have just been handed another "suspension" when in fairness half of Labour including McDonnell have said they wanted him removed. Suspending a guy from being a MP when has no want to be one and never will be again, albeit letting him be a member of the party, comment on party business and generally promote Labour is a disgrace. Half of labour's MP's also think so.

Linky

Quote

Almost half of Labour's MPs sign letter criticising decision to allow Ken Livingstone to remain in party
Eight shadow cabinet members among those expressing anger at disciplinary panel's verdict

Again, the closer the people are to Corbyn's past, the less likely they are to be punished after Labour's code of ethics. Suspending someone like Shah who later admitted she was anti-semetic in front of the whole parliament when several key Labour figures have said people who are racist should be removed from the party for life, as well as Labour's codes of conduct stating the same is an absolute joke.

The Champion example shows  that he's not afraid to act on people who "draw racial lines". It's just not the same to him when it's done to someone who's Jewish. When Corbyn doesn't want to engage when invited to talk to pro-Israel groups, goes to talk to Hamas, has a very cloudy history of supporting Stop the War which have many times said some pretty racially charged things and is more one sided in the Israel debate than Abbas then it's not the furthest reach I've seen in politics to suspect something.

Edited August 25, 2017 by magnkarl

[bickster]

23 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Yeah, the same Livingstone who has repeatedly spouted anti-semitic and racist bs who have just been handed another "suspension" when in fairness half of Labour including McDonnell have said they wanted him removed. Suspending a guy from being a MP when has no want to be one and never will be again, albeit letting him be a member of the party, comment on party business and generally promote Labour is a disgrace. Half of labour's MP's also think so.

Linky

Again, the closer the people are to Corbyn's past, the less likely they are to be punished after Labour's code of ethics. Suspending someone like Shah who later admitted she was anti-semetic in front of the whole parliament when several key Labour figures have said people who are racist should be removed from the party for life, as well as Labour's codes of conduct stating the same is an absolute joke.

The Champion example shows  that he's not afraid to act on people who "draw racial lines". It's just not the same to him when it's done to someone who's Jewish. When Corbyn doesn't want to engage when invited to talk to pro-Israel groups, goes to talk to Hamas, has a very cloudy history of supporting Stop the War which have many times said some pretty racially charged things and is more one sided in the Israel debate than Abbas then it's not the furthest reach I've seen in politics to suspect something.

It appears you've woken up and forgotten everything you learned last night. Try reading the supposed anti-semitic statements and deciding for yourself if they were. Certainly in the case of Shah, no at all, she was clearly pressured into making that statement to clear the air. Tbh, without looking into the History of the Third Reich, I'm not sure Livingston's comments were either. he is adamant they weren't and he does have some scholars of history on his side.

Instead of reading the headlines, have a look at what was actually said.

[magnkarl]

47 minutes ago, bickster said:

It appears you've woken up and forgotten everything you learned last night. Try reading the supposed anti-semitic statements and deciding for yourself if they were. Certainly in the case of Shah, no at all, she was clearly pressured into making that statement to clear the air. Tbh, without looking into the History of the Third Reich, I'm not sure Livingston's comments were either. he is adamant they weren't and he does have some scholars of history on his side.

Instead of reading the headlines, have a look at what was actually said.

In Livingstone's case using well known Holocaust deniers as sources for any sort of serious debate is beyond ridiculous. Don't you agree? He's using quotes from people who have no credibility to further an extremely evil agenda. However I'll let this be now, it seems that talking to members of the party in the UK that is supposed to be anti-racist about perceived racism touches too many nerves. There's an incredible amount of "but the tories are just as bad" "but he's got sources for his denial of the holocaust!!" and so on. The next time anyone Labour shouts about racism or people who are, in Corbyn's words, "drawing racial lines", think of the fact that a guy who's been condemned by half of his party is still allowed to be a member of it.

How people who defended the way Champion was pushed out because of the article in the sun can't see the duality of defending someone like Livingstone for his tin foil hat comments is beyond me. 

To quote Deputy Leader Watson:

Quote

“I am ashamed that we have allowed Mr Livingstone to cause such distress,” he said. “It isn’t just Jewish people who feel disgusted and offended by what Mr Livingstone said and by the way he has conducted himself over this matter, and it isn’t just Jewish Labour members who feel ashamed of any indulgence of his views anywhere in the Labour party.”

 

Edited August 25, 2017 by magnkarl

[HanoiVillan]

5 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

In Livingstone's case using well known Holocaust deniers as sources for any sort of serious debate is beyond ridiculous. Don't you agree? He's using quotes from people who have no credibility to further an extremely evil agenda. However I'll let this be now, it seems that talking to members of the party in the UK that is supposed to be anti-racist about perceived racism touches too many nerves. There's an incredible amount of "but the tories are just as bad" "but he's got sources for his denial of the holocaust!!" and so on. The next time anyone Labour shouts about racism or people who are, in Corbyn's words, "drawing racial lines", think of the fact that a guy who's been condemned by half of his party is still allowed to be a member of it.

How people who defended the way Champion was pushed out because of the article in the sun can't see the duality of defending someone like Livingstone for his tin foil hat comments is beyond me. 

Are you simply going to ignore my post above then? 

A bit annoying to be honest, I spent about 45 minutes reading about people I'd never heard of, following links that you conspicuously didn't provide. 

[magnkarl]

17 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Are you simply going to ignore my post above then? 

A bit annoying to be honest, I spent about 45 minutes reading about people I'd never heard of, following links that you conspicuously didn't provide. 

I've read your reply. It's full of personal judgement of people you clearly have no intention of holding to the same account as you would a conservative. You start your post by saying you don't want to talk about the guy who's the worst in Livingstone, then you move on and take Wadsworth's side in the publishing of the report. You still seem to think a suspension is the same as being expelled as per Labour's rules.

Just suspending someone who continuously defends an anti-semitic point of view is laughable.

Labour - "Straight talking - honest politics".

Edited August 25, 2017 by magnkarl

[snowychap]

8 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

it seems that talking to members of the party in the UK that is supposed to be anti-racist about perceived racism touches too many nerves

Who are these members of the party in the UK?

I've got @darrenm down as one (I think that's right, Darren?) - who else?

[HanoiVillan]

19 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I've read your reply. It's full of personal judgement of people you clearly have no intention of holding to the same account as you would a conservative. You start your post by saying you don't want to talk about the guy who's the worst in Livingstone, then you move on and take Wadsworth's side in the publishing of the report. You still seem to think a suspension is the same as being expelled as per Labour's rules.

Just suspending someone who continuously defends an anti-semitic point of view is laughable.

Labour - "Straight talking - honest politics".

Hold on, hold on. I'm not the one accusing people, in writing, of being anti-semites. I had literally never heard of Marc Wadsworth until last night. That information is what I have gleaned from his Wikipedia profile. If you have more evidence to substantiate your allegation that he's an anti-semite, it would probably be a good idea to supply it. 

I think the issue here is that you want to be able to just throw rhetorical bombs without doing any leg-work. 

EDIT: . . . and I don't think 'being suspended' and 'being expelled' are synonymous either. They are, though, both forms of party discipline, which you stated Labour have been slow to provide. 

Edited August 25, 2017 by HanoiVillan