The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[bickster]

Decisions decisions, couldn't decide which topic to put this in but thought it better here in the end.

That's a dramatic shift. They just made a huge play for marginal seats in remain territory. That puts huge pressure on the government at a time when some senior backbenchers and Lords are more revolting than normal

 

Quote

Labour makes dramatic Brexit shift and backs single market membership

Party opens clear divide with Tories, with support for free movement and paying into EU budgets for up to four years

Labour is to announce a dramatic policy shift by backing continued membership of the EU single market beyond March 2019, when Britain leaves the EU, establishing a clear dividing line with the Tories on Brexit for the first time.

In a move that positions it decisively as the party of “soft Brexit”, Labour will support full participation in the single market and customs union during a lengthy “transitional period” that it believes could last between two and four years after the day of departure, it is to announce on Sunday.

This will mean that under a Labour government the UK would continue to abide by the EU’s free movement rules, accept the jurisdiction of the European court of justice on trade and economic issues, and pay into the EU budget for a period of years after Brexit, in the hope of lessening the shock of leaving to the UK economy. In a further move that will delight many pro-EU Labour backers, Jeremy Corbyn’s party will also leave open the option of the UK remaining a member of the customs union and single market for good, beyond the end of the transitional period.

Permanent long-term membership would only be considered if a Labour government could by then have persuaded the rest of the EU to agree to a special deal on immigration and changes to freedom of movement rules.

The announcement, revealed in the Observer by the shadow Brexit secretary, Keir Starmer, means voters will have a clear choice between the two main parties on the UK’s future relations with the EU after a year in which Labour’s approach has been criticised for lacking definition and appeared at times hard to distinguish from that of the Tories.

The decision to stay inside the single market and abide by all EU rules during the transitional period, and possibly beyond, was agreed after a week of intense discussion at the top of the party. It was signed off by the leadership and key members of the shadow cabinet on Thursday, according to Starmer’s office.

The new policy will inevitably be presented by Brexit supporters as evidence Labour is ready to betray the will of the people as expressed in last year’s referendum, which delivered a narrow victory for Leave. And it sets the stage for incendiary arguments with the government on 7 September, when the European Union (withdrawal) bill returns to the Commons for its second reading.

Pro-EU Tory MPs, who also support remaining in the single market, will be put under intense pressure by Labour to fall in behind its position and rebel against their own party. If significant numbers were to do so, Theresa May’s already shaky grip on power would be seriously threatened.

Liam Fox, the international trade secretary, and Philip Hammond, the chancellor, recently made clear that the UK would leave the customs union, as well as the single market, during a transitional period immediately after Brexit.

Starmer says the time for “constructive ambiguity” is over. “Labour would seek a transitional deal that maintains the same basic terms that we currently enjoy with the EU. That means we would seek to remain in a customs union with the EU and within the single market during this period. It means we would abide by the common rules of both.”

He says the Tory position of leaving the single market and customs union would be “unnecessary and a highly risky path to take”. Starmer adds: “We will always put jobs and the economy first. That means remaining in a form of customs union with the EU is a possible end destination for Labour, but that must be subject to negotiations. It also means that Labour is flexible as to whether the benefits of the single market are best retained by negotiating a new single market relationship or by working up from a bespoke trade deal.”

 

Starmer has been coming under ever increasing pressure from a group of pro-EU MPs and activists within his party. MPs Heidi Alexander and Alison McGovern have launched an online campaign demanding unequivocal support, launched a website and published a motion for members to submit for debate at next month’s party conference in Brighton, via their constituency Labour parties. “The Labour party is serious about protecting jobs, tackling austerity and defending the rights of workers and consumers, so staying part of the customs union and in the European Economic Area is a no-brainer,” said the two MPs. “Labour must be able to deliver the ambitious programme of investment in public services which we put to the electorate in 2017.”

Labour’s new approach was announced as Brexit secretary David Davis prepared for the latest round of talks on the UK’s departure with his EU counterpart Michel Barnier, which will take place in Brussels.

Likny

1

 

[tonyh29]

Didn't they just vote against an amendment on this raised by Umunna a few weeks ago ?

 

[chrisp65]

A dramatic shift of policy with a clear difference between Labour and Tory?

One party has a dumb aspiration to leave in 2 years, the other wants to do the same but in 4 years.

Yeah!

Choice.

 

[bickster]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

A dramatic shift of policy with a clear difference between Labour and Tory?

One party has a dumb aspiration to leave in 2 years, the other wants to do the same but in 4 years.

Yeah!

Choice.

 

There is a haven't ruled out staying in the single market/customs union if the EU is prepared to budge on immigration policy rider

[Chindie]

It's somewhat meaningless still because the EU isn't going to move on immigration. Labour still aren't far from what the Tories want, and like the Tories they're forlorn hopes.

[darrenm]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

It's somewhat meaningless still because the EU isn't going to move on immigration. Labour still aren't far from what the Tories want, and like the Tories they're forlorn hopes.

Only after the transition period. This position from Labour is purely about the transition where SM/customs will continue with immigration. After that nothing is ruled out. Transition period is expected to be 5 years or longer so this now means actually leaving will never happen as there will never be a good point to jump off the cliff.

[Chindie]

Just now, darrenm said:

Only after the transition period. This position from Labour is purely about the transition where SM/customs will continue with immigration. After that nothing is ruled out. Transition period is expected to be 5 years or longer so this now means actually leaving will never happen as there will never be a good point to jump off the cliff.

The EU isn't going to allow uncertainty to last forever, it's not good for anyone being in limbo. They will eventually want us to shit or get off the pot, and there will be members and influences looking at the UK's current slice of the pie enviously. Therefore the transition needs to end one way or another. With this stance, either Labour grow some balls and say no to Brexit down the line, which might be suicidal, or we leave as before because the stance is something the EU will not give, ala carte membership with the pillars of the organisation.

It's slightly better than nothing, but changes very little.

[darrenm]

9 minutes ago, Chindie said:

The EU isn't going to allow uncertainty to last forever, it's not good for anyone being in limbo. They will eventually want us to shit or get off the pot, and there will be members and influences looking at the UK's current slice of the pie enviously. Therefore the transition needs to end one way or another. With this stance, either Labour grow some balls and say no to Brexit down the line, which might be suicidal, or we leave as before because the stance is something the EU will not give, ala carte membership with the pillars of the organisation.

It's slightly better than nothing, but changes very little.

I personally think it'll end up being get off the pot pretty soon.

[peterms]

5 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

A dramatic shift of policy with a clear difference between Labour and Tory?

One party has a dumb aspiration to leave in 2 years, the other wants to do the same but in 4 years.

Yeah!

Choice.

 

I suggest what's going on is trying to move to a position of staying in, without causing an implosion in their own support.

In the aftermath of the referendum, simply opposing the result would have been counterproductive.  Political movement needs to be conducted at a pace people will accept, and that would have been too far too fast.  There needs to be a period of time over which people can become apprised of the real costs of leaving, understand the truth and falsehood of what they were told, and decide whether they are ready to reconsider.  Because after all, you're asking people to admit they were wrong about a pretty fundamental judgement, which many people can find unpalatable.

Moving slowly on this is seen as a failure of political leadership.  It's not, rather it's showing some tactical awareness of how to get the job done.

This is not to argue that we should remain, by the way.  I think it may be a long-term strategic mistake, depending on the capacity of the EU to be changed from what it has become.  I'm just talking about how a party which on balance wants to remain, can achieve that outcome if they have a lot of leave supporters among their voters and potential supporters.

 

[Chindie]

1 hour ago, darrenm said:

I personally think it'll end up being get off the pot pretty soon.

You've more faith than me. Without an enormous sea change in immigration viewpoints from much of the populace, which won't happen without significant economic recovery making it a less pressing issue at best, a change to no Brexit is a desire to have 'foreigners tekin ya job and dirty Moslems scrounging in mansions and pumping out terrorists'. Which would lead to whichever party went for it using a hammering in the polls and any party happy to oppose getting the easiest attack method in British history, if nothing else because it would be pathetically easy to say they'd ignored democracy for the benefit of their liberal elite chums. Which is why I'm still not certain the Norway deal would ever happen either.

Frankly I think we might crash to a no deal through sheer incompetence and try to claim that as a victory. They set the pieces to do it for long enough already.

[peterms]

I see there's a new recruit on board for making the case for far higher levels of taxation for very rich people.

 

[peterms]

This is the kind of thing I mean by the danger of trying to move too fast.

Quote

Jeremy Corbyn and Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, are facing a backlash from senior MPs in Labour’s traditional heartlands after announcing a dramatic shift in party policy to back continued membership of the EU single market beyond March 2019...

 

[tonyh29]

On 08/08/2017 at 11:40, magnkarl said:

There are three parties that have failed in this whole brexit nightmare.

 

2) Labour. I mean - what the hell has Labour done with Brexit? Their stance was never clear, their leaders changes their opinion on it like a flag in wind and Corbyn now said he'll also take Britain out of the single market if he's a leader. Labour has been in opposition for going on 8 years and still haven't managed to form any sort of coherent option. It's hard to place them at the moment and it feels like Corbyn is more of a rebel than a politician.

 

 

On 08/08/2017 at 14:06, darrenm said:

Not meaning to go around just defending Labour but they've done the only thing they possibly can do to keep any chance of power. Current populism of this country dictates that you have to support a full hard brexit or get decimated in the polls and in turn elections. If Labour go half-cocked at anything, the papers will destroy them.

 

5 hours ago, darrenm said:

Only after the transition period. This position from Labour is purely about the transition where SM/customs will continue with immigration. After that nothing is ruled out. Transition period is expected to be 5 years or longer so this now means actually leaving will never happen as there will never be a good point to jump off the cliff.

what a difference a few weeks makes .... 

[darrenm]

2 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

 

 

what a difference a few weeks makes .... 

Not sure what you're picking up on here. What are you saying?

[ml1dch]

8 hours ago, tonyh29 said:

 

 

what a difference a few weeks makes .... 

Public opinion and the impact that it has on government policy. It changes, therefore what can and can't be said changes

One day nothing but a hard UKOGBANIXIT can be discussed, the next a "the grown ups have had a look and realised that we don't want to scuttle the country after all, so we're just going to fudge this one" is back on the table without those grown-ups being marched to the gallows.

Edited August 28, 2017 by ml1dch

[blandy]

12 hours ago, peterms said:

I suggest what's going on is trying to move to a position of staying in, without causing an implosion in their own support.

In the aftermath of the referendum, simply opposing the result would have been counterproductive.  Political movement needs to be conducted at a pace people will accept, and that would have been too far too fast.  There needs to be a period of time over which people can become apprised of the real costs of leaving, understand the truth and falsehood of what they were told, and decide whether they are ready to reconsider.  Because after all, you're asking people to admit they were wrong about a pretty fundamental judgement, which many people can find unpalatable.

Moving slowly on this is seen as a failure of political leadership.  It's not, rather it's showing some tactical awareness of how to get the job done.

This is not to argue that we should remain, by the way.  I think it may be a long-term strategic mistake, depending on the capacity of the EU to be changed from what it has become.  I'm just talking about how a party which on balance wants to remain, can achieve that outcome if they have a lot of leave supporters among their voters and potential supporters.

That's one credible explanation. Another, perhaps, is that overwhelmingly labours MPs and voters are and were remainers, and that ceasing to basically support the Tory idiotic and incompetent brexit plans might be the sort of thing a labour opposition party ought to, at some point, get round to doing. Finally labour has just slightly started to distance itself from the tories on this.

maybe they will go further, I hope so, but even Corbyn must have begun to see the lunacy of their previous line and actions, and to realise that as it's all beginning to unravel with brexit, labour ought to put itself in a position where it is clearly proposing something different to the tories, so they can y'know, oppose.

[tonyh29]

9 hours ago, ml1dch said:

Public opinion and the impact that it has on government policy. It changes, therefore what can and can't be said changes

One day nothing but a hard UKOGBANIXIT can be discussed, the next a "the grown ups have had a look and realised that we don't want to scuttle the country after all, so we're just going to fudge this one" is back on the table without those grown-ups being marched to the gallows.

If I had time I'd go into the Tory thread and see how May's policy decision change(s) have  been met on VT ... I'm sure it was equally progmatic 

But we are told Corbyn is man of principles who sticks to what he believes ? I guess tbf with Brexit it's hard to actually know what he believes as his and his parties view changes with the wind but I dunno it strikes me yet again as someone whose focus groups are leading him to say anything they think will win him votes ,It's certainly not unique to him , arguably we got the referendum cause Cameron put it out there to win votes from UKIP supporters...

[bickster]

31 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

If I had time I'd go into the Tory thread and see how May's policy decision change(s) have  been met on VT ... I'm sure it was equally progmatic 

But we are told Corbyn is man of principles who sticks to what he believes ? I guess tbf with Brexit it's hard to actually know what he believes as his and his parties view changes with the wind but I dunno it strikes me yet again as someone whose focus groups are leading him to say anything they think will win him votes ,It's certainly not unique to him , arguably we got the referendum cause Cameron put it out there to win votes from UKIP supporters...

Actually, I thought he was the leader of a democratic party, whose policy is decided by the membership, see Trident for differences between Corbyn's beliefs / Party Policy

[chrisp65]

They are still pro Brexit.

They just want 48 months to do it, not 24.

All the rest is wishful thinking and filling in gaps that aren't there.

How long can you vote for someone that doesn't support your basic beliefs in the hope he's telling a short term little lie to help the masses get there heads straight?

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

They are still pro Brexit.

They just want 48 months to do it, not 24.

All the rest is wishful thinking and filling in gaps that aren't there.

How long can you vote for someone that doesn't support your basic beliefs in the hope he's telling a short term little lie to help the masses get there heads straight?

Completely agree, sadly the only main Pro EU party is the Libcons, they've already proved themselves untrustworthy of my vote, so it's still back to Greens for me as it stands