The ISIS threat to Europe

[Keyblade]

27 minutes ago, penguin said:

Where has this been debunked?

It's pretty impossible to debunk the word of a single lady, but given the fact that she is the only person who claimed it with zero evidence and no corroboration from anybody else, it shouldn't be considered as evidence surely? Erroneous was the wrong word to use though, more like tenuous at best. 

[StefanAVFC]

Yep, the evidence towards no links to Islam is far greater than the word of one woman. 

[Genie]

In the current spate of attacks on the west it must only a matter of time before the US or UK get another major one.

[Awol]

3 hours ago, StefanAVFC said:

Born in Germany, identified as German, was bullied by people who said he wasn't German.

One of my best friends is half Iranian/half British, born in Italy, yet identifies as 100% British. It's a dangerous road to go down when we start saying people aren't a certain nationality even though they were born there. 

I've seen analogies on right wing sites like, 'if a rat was born in a stable, it doesn't make it a horse'. It's just gross.

The connection between place of birth and nationality isn't universally accepted.

My boy was born in Oman and there was no question of him being entitled to a passport or citizenship. Their identify is ethnic not civic so the fact a foreigner is born in their country means nothing, they are still foreign.

I agree with you that the western approach to citizenship is better, but the opposite approach isn't the preserve of dribbling racists, it's actually quite common. 

[Awol]

Seems the Syrian refugee suicide bomber who blew himself up in Ansbach Germany last night had made a video on his phone beforehand pledging allegiance to ISIS. 

Fortunately he was the only one killed but 12 were wounded in the attack. He'd earlier tried and failed to gain entry to an open air music festival, thank God the security there were on the ball. 

There doesn't appear to have been any ISIS link to the Syrian refugee who murdered a pregnant woman and injured others with a machete a few hours before that. By all accounts the quick witted actions of a passing BMW driver (who ran him over) saved several lives. 

It does seem to be an evolution of the terrorist threat that people are seemingly heeding ISIS' call to carry out attacks in their name even if they have no previous links to the organisation. 

I really don't know how the authorities can address this issue of self radicalisation and subsequent attacks, be that with a knife, gun, vehicle or home made bomb. Detection in advance is almost impossible, even if the individuals are known to the police for other criminal activity.

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Awol

[villakram]

Maybe not the right forum, but I think it's of interest.

So, over the weekend there was another mass shooting incident at a nightclub in Florida, 2 dead, >10 injured... but, phew not ISIS just some "standard" gang stuff is the official media reaction... bonkers! You better be wearing that ISIS shirt or simply don't bother... bah, I don't get it, I just find i so bizarre!! This ISIS thing is really messing with us. 

[Keyblade]

Yeah like how the media coverage and furor over the Munich shooter just suddenly came to a halt after it became clear that he had no ties to ISIS or any Islamic extremism.

[penguin]

8 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Yeah like how the media coverage and furor over the Munich shooter just suddenly came to a halt after it became clear that he had no ties to ISIS or any Islamic extremism.

Don't think this is true at all. A lot the information surrounding the event has been conflicting and unclear from the start, and it was also widely reported earlier that there has been a second arrest. Without any further (confirmed) developments there wouldn't appear to a fat lot else to be said as of yet, the fact there has been the machete attack and the bombing in the same country since has also obviously pushed it down the queue.

[Keyblade]

4 minutes ago, penguin said:

Don't think this is true at all. A lot the information surrounding the event has been conflicting and unclear from the start, and it was also widely reported earlier that there has been a second arrest. Without any further (confirmed) developments there wouldn't appear to a fat lot else to be said as of yet, the fact there has been the machete attack and the bombing in the same country since has also obviously pushed it down the queue.

I mean, not having enough information has never stopped the media before. But I'd say that's when there was the most coverage. As soon as the police held their press conference, things died down dramatically. I was following it intently from the start both on the news and internet and I was surprised at how things transpired. I have no doubt that if it turned out to be by ISIS that the media would waste no time in beating a dead horse.

[Awol]

1 hour ago, villakram said:

Maybe not the right forum, but I think it's of interest.

So, over the weekend there was another mass shooting incident at a nightclub in Florida, 2 dead, >10 injured... but, phew not ISIS just some "standard" gang stuff is the official media reaction... bonkers! You better be wearing that ISIS shirt or simply don't bother... bah, I don't get it, I just find i so bizarre!! This ISIS thing is really messing with us. 

Well ISIS have been killing people in rather large numbers of late, and not just in countries we (western folks) generally don't care about. 

With respect mass murders in the US are pretty much a daily occurrence, in Europe not so much. I think the reason ISIS or AQ linked killings in the US (Fort Hood, Boston, San Bernadino, Orlando) stand out in such a crowded theatre of death is the cultural imprint left by 9/11 and the subsequent wars, political & media narratives that have grown by, with and through them.

To be fair most of us used to get quite upset about the IRA back in the day. Statistically more people were killed in everyday mundane accidents, but I think it's the knowledge that people are planning to and then committing random acts of murder (often with utter savagery) that horrifies & captures the imagination. 

EDIT: And it sells.

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Awol

[Xela]

On 24/07/2016 at 14:36, Genie said:

In the current spate of attacks on the west it must only a matter of time before the US or UK get another major one.

I agree but in the UK, I believe a combination of far better security and intelligence services and a more stringent immigration policy is a factor in this not happening...yet. Unfortunately I think it will happen as you can't stop everything.

 

[blandy]

28 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

I mean, not having enough information has never stopped the media before. But I'd say that's when there was the most coverage. As soon as the police held their press conference, things died down dramatically. I was following it intently from the start both on the news and internet and I was surprised at how things transpired. I have no doubt that if it turned out to be by ISIS that the media would waste no time in beating a dead horse.

You're absolutely right, but also there's the "continuity" element of the "story" with ISIS - it's like from time to time (rarely, happily) there will be a serial attacker - say a rapist, for example, and the media then start to view all attacks (including muggings of women) through the story of "was this another rape attempt?" because an ongoing "story" in their view is of more interest, or sells more papers. Fear stories basically make up all of the Daily Mail's entire written output. Well that and just being vile to people.

But yeah, human and media nature looks for "is this (or this is) another one of a pattern?" rather than "let's see what details we have and when there's enough info, we can make a reasoned analysis.

[villakram]

1 hour ago, Xela said:

I agree but in the UK, I believe a combination of far better security and intelligence services and a more stringent immigration policy is a factor in this not happening...yet. Unfortunately I think it will happen as you can't stop everything.

 

"stringent...", it's just pot geographical luck, e.g., see stringent US immigration policy and the southern border.

[Keyblade]

11 hours ago, blandy said:

You're absolutely right, but also there's the "continuity" element of the "story" with ISIS - it's like from time to time (rarely, happily) there will be a serial attacker - say a rapist, for example, and the media then start to view all attacks (including muggings of women) through the story of "was this another rape attempt?" because an ongoing "story" in their view is of more interest, or sells more papers. Fear stories basically make up all of the Daily Mail's entire written output. Well that and just being vile to people.

But yeah, human and media nature looks for "is this (or this is) another one of a pattern?" rather than "let's see what details we have and when there's enough info, we can make a reasoned analysis.

Fully agree. Very irresponsible on the part of the media though. Surprisingly enough FOX had the most unbiased coverage from what I noticed. Meanwhile CNN was already jumping to conclusions and invited that Allahu Akbar lady to give her testimony  

[TrentVilla]

Ah yes the ever reliable and unbiased Fox News that not so long ago reported Birningham was a no go zone.

Fox news is to news what the McCann's are to babysitting.

[BOF]

2 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

Fox news is to news what the McCann's are to babysitting.

[Keyblade]

3 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

Ah yes the ever reliable and unbiased Fox News that not so long ago reported Birningham was a no go zone.

Fox news is to news what the McCann's are to babysitting.

 

Seriously though, they were comparatively unbiased. It was like being in an alternate inverse reality.

[Keyblade]

Also another attack in France where a Church has been taken over and an 86 year old priest's throat slit. They can't catch a break out there. 

[snowychap]

Just now, Keyblade said:

Also another attack in France where a Church has been taken over and an 86 year old priest's throat slit. They can't catch a break out there. 

As the Beeb's man Frank Gardner said, it seems a little strange that the two bods were reported to have shouted "Daesh" considering how the Islamic Staters aren't supposed to be all that keen on the moniker.

 

Sky's coverage went much like this:

We must repeat the following and we can't stress it enough - that no official word has come as to the motive for the attack or whether it is anything to do with IS or Islamic terrorism.

Having chucked in that caveat, let's go back to Bob* on the 'phone and discuss Islamic terrorism to the backdrop of pictures of the aftermath of this event in Rouen, talk about how Islamic terroristy it all appears to be and give IS lots and lots of publicity.

*Bob may not have been the man's name.

[TrentVilla]

8 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Also another attack in France where a Church has been taken over and an 86 year old priest's throat slit. They can't catch a break out there. 

And there is an alleged link to Daesh through what the perpetrator is alleged to have shouted.

I've lost track of the number of incidents in France in the last 12-18 months.