The "Too Many Foreigners" Myth

[Stevo985]

To separate the discussion from Off Topic.

 

One of the most talked about effects of the Premier League having so many foreigners is the damage it does to the National team.

 

I, for one, think this is one of the biggest myths in football. I think foreigners in the league actually helps the national side.

Foreigners improve the standard of the league, it's one of the best in the world. 

 

This means English players have to be better than they were previously to make it into their club sides these days. Plus they have the benefit of playing with players of different cultures, styles, attitudes etc which, imo, can only be beneficial.

 

I can't think of any evidence, as such, that shows foreigners have had a detrimental effect to the national side.

To me, it just seems to be touted with nothing to back it up. A go to reason for the national side not performing very well (which is, in itself, a myth. England perform more or less as they should for a country of it's size in the world of football)

 

Thoughts? Am I wrong?

[Mic09]

You are right. It shouldnt be a case of 'you play for Villa because you are English' but 'you play for Villa because you are the best'. 

It's a ridiculus argument, anyway, there are plenty of englishmen in the Premier League. They are not often the best, but the best of English play in their clubs, e.g Baines, Hart, Oxlade, Rooney

[GarethRDR]

Yup, piffle and hogwash.  The lack of funding, infrastructure and coaching at grass-roots level is the problem.

[Eames]

EDIT wrote a massive reply. Gareth sums it up just as well.

[colhint]

I can't agree. We have about 33% English in the prem. 

 

Spain 59%

France 51%

Germany 50%

Italy  44%

 

Now the thing is with that, unless you are really good at an early age, you will probably not get into a top 6 team. So if you are somewhere between 20 and 23, and still improving forget it. And even those with a lot of promise, will often be bought to sit on a bench somewhere. I know there are the exceptions to the rule, but I would bet the last time we did well in a tournament, probably euro 96, there were far more English in the league. 

[mikeyp102]

The lack of coaching (and coaching infrastructure) does have a massive affect. I'd agree that having top quality foreigners does improve the players around them. My only concern is seeing rubbish foreigners coming into the English game because they are cheaper than British or seen as less risk than younger players. For example, Tonev at us. Is he going to improve the players around him? Highly unlikely. His place in the team could have been used to give a youth teamer more opportunities.

Edited May 13, 2014 by mikeyp102

[villa4europe]

im going to make up some stats that i saw on here last week but cant remember properly but i thought it was very telling

 

top UEFA coaching license in the UK costs £2,500, in spain and germany it costs around £500, both of them have >10,000 more qualified coaches than we do

 

it really is that simple for me

 

the other thing that i would add is in my mind there is a detrimental "made it" culture in english football, luke shaw could be next, 19, £30m transfer and £100k a week in wages, rodwell and sinclair moving despite knowing they wouldn't get an opportunity, lescott sitting on citys bench because no one will touch his £90k a week wage demands, the ashley cole nearly crashed his car bollocks, fair play to him for finally leaving but sturridge for years at chelsea... i just dont see the same happening abroad

 

and it might be because of the strength of our lower leagues but how many english players are there abroad at the moment? willing to go abroad to play every week at a better level? id guess that if you added up all the players from every league in europe 3 english players will have league winners medals this summer, hart, milner and lescott... why would half decent players rather play in the championship then say stromgodset or salzburg, who won their league and will play in the champions league?

 

for the exact same reason all these foreign players want to play here, lifestyle and money 

[AVFCforever1991]

Edited May 13, 2014 by AVFCforever1991

[PaulC]

I can't agree. We have about 33% English in the prem. 

 

Spain 59%

France 51%

Germany 50%

Italy  44%

 

Now the thing is with that, unless you are really good at an early age, you will probably not get into a top 6 team. So if you are somewhere between 20 and 23, and still improving forget it. And even those with a lot of promise, will often be bought to sit on a bench somewhere. I know there are the exceptions to the rule, but I would bet the last time we did well in a tournament, probably euro 96, there were far more English in the league. 

 

 

Yes I agree its no myth if you only have 1/3 of the players available to you then its going to have a negative effect on the national side.

[abdulaziz1]

I'm not an English so I don't care a lot about the English national team (As long as there are no Villa players there). However, I could understand the view of making the foreigners less to give English players the chance. Although one of the biggest problems for English players are that they're overpriced. Same as we have in Saudi Arabia, No one in another league will pay the amount we're paying players because they're overpriced. In England there were only couple of players who played abroad, Some of them as Beckham and Owen have benefits in the commercial which could pay what they're overpriced in.

 

Anyway, I'm going to talk from a Villa fan view (Which is my only case) , I think this would benefit us. Say we only have the chance to sign 9 foreigners. We'll have let's say 6-7 first teamers and only 2 squad players. Let's say for now we have Delph, Westwood and Gabby as our English first teamers We could also sign another one, with 7 foreign players. We'll be ok with that. Actually we'll be having the chance to take the foreign players that top teams can't afford. And We'd also have the chance to sign them earlier as the top teams will have few choices. So someone like Nacer Chadli won't have gone to Spurs as a back up. Which only would leave him for a team like Villa or other midtable teams.

 

So with less foreigners and less quality Vs number in English players. I could only see that it will fill the gaps between top teams, Midtable and bottom half teams.

Edited May 13, 2014 by abdulaziz1

[leviramsey]

Now the thing is with that, unless you are really good at an early age, you will probably not get into a top 6 team. So if you are somewhere between 20 and 23, and still improving forget it. And even those with a lot of promise, will often be bought to sit on a bench somewhere. I know there are the exceptions to the rule, but I would bet the last time we did well in a tournament, probably euro 96, there were far more English in the league.

How much of that phenomenon is due to English players being (apparently) unwilling to play abroad? (Assuming that young English players are good enough to play abroad...)

(of course, the wages in the Championship are generally better than what you'd find anywhere in Europe outside of Germany, France, Italy, or Spain... as with a lot of issues in British football, I think the hidden cause is probably too many clubs)

[Stevo985]

 

I can't agree. We have about 33% English in the prem. 

 

Spain 59%

France 51%

Germany 50%

Italy  44%

 

Now the thing is with that, unless you are really good at an early age, you will probably not get into a top 6 team. So if you are somewhere between 20 and 23, and still improving forget it. And even those with a lot of promise, will often be bought to sit on a bench somewhere. I know there are the exceptions to the rule, but I would bet the last time we did well in a tournament, probably euro 96, there were far more English in the league. 

 

 

Yes I agree its no myth if you only have 1/3 of the players available to you then its going to have a negative effect on the national side.

 

You don't have a third of the players available though.

The english players are still there, they just fall further down the leagues if they're not good enough than they did before.

 

The players who are good enough still play in the premier league. And as a result of their being less english players who aren't up to that standard, they're playing against and with the best players in the world every week.

 

If the league was all English then our good players would be playing in a league of a lower standard, against players who weren't as good. THat would surely mean they wouldn;'t be as good.

 

 

I'm far more willing to agree with the argument that it's players being paid millions at a very early age that ruins them. You could argue that as an indirect result of having lots of foreigners, but I think it highlights a bigger problem.

[Stevo985]

 I know there are the exceptions to the rule, but I would bet the last time we did well in a tournament, probably euro 96, there were far more English in the league. 

 

I'd say this argument is invalid. We didn't qualify for the world cup in 1994 when there were less foreigners in the league.

[Wainy316]

Investment in grass roots is the main problem, but I think it may hinder players that develop at a later age.  The opportunity may not be there for them to realise their full potential.

 

 

Do you think Sheffield United legend Jimmy Muir would've ever got a foot on the ladder?  Remember the age he broke into the game at?

 

 

[Jarpie]

The problem isn't IMO that there's too many foreigners, the problem is the coaching and youth work. The way I see it is that english players aren't technical enough and aren't good enough at reading the game, especially attacking players. I think this is due the coaching at youth levels where the coaches tells them to play exactly like the coaches tell them to instead of how to read the game and make right decisions.

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

They come over here, take all of our football jobs.

[colhint]

 

 I know there are the exceptions to the rule, but I would bet the last time we did well in a tournament, probably euro 96, there were far more English in the league. 

 

I'd say this argument is invalid. We didn't qualify for the world cup in 1994 when there were less foreigners in the league.

 

 

I did say there would be exceptions, Since the sky money we have made one semi and that's when we were at home, prior to sky we were in the group just below Brazil Argentina Italy and Germany, so we always thought we could do ok, Now we think will we make it out of our group. 

To be honest, part of me hopes we are knocked out after 2 games, maybe then the FA will try to do something, if we keep on just about making thee quarters, they'll just pootle on thinking everything is ok with English football plc.

[LordSepulchrave]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/england/10822090/Please-Mr-Dyke-do-not-forget-the-coaches-or-our-game-will-continue-to-struggle-to-produce-good-players.html

 

Apparently the coaching issue is "still under discussion" by Dyke and co., which makes the whole attack on the foreign make-up of the league look like a populist move.

[TRS-T]

I agree.

 

Quality not quantity.

[Stevo985]

I know there are the exceptions to the rule, but I would bet the last time we did well in a tournament, probably euro 96, there were far more English in the league.

I'd say this argument is invalid. We didn't qualify for the world cup in 1994 when there were less foreigners in the league.

I did say there would be exceptions, Since the sky money we have made one semi and that's when we were at home, prior to sky we were in the group just below Brazil Argentina Italy and Germany, so we always thought we could do ok, Now we think will we make it out of our group.

To be honest, part of me hopes we are knocked out after 2 games, maybe then the FA will try to do something, if we keep on just about making thee quarters, they'll just pootle on thinking everything is ok with English football plc.

euro 96 is the exception, not the other way round.

Since sky we've made one semi.

In the 40-50 years before sky we made a grand total of 2 semis, one of which we were "at home"

Edited May 13, 2014 by Stevo985