Marka Ragnos Posted March 28, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) I think part of the problem some people may have with the use of the word "Evil" (generally, not specific to this disaster) is the implied religious element. The kind of old testament God and the Devil stuff - the belief that some religionist people have of their God doing and being responsible for "good" things, and a Devil being responsible for or doing "Evil" things. Many people see there's not the slightest bit of evidence or justification or reason for that sort of superstitious view. They see that this construct of the Devil and as a consequence alleged Devil instigated "evil" is utter baloney. They see that there is no "Devil" there is no "God" and thus there is no (religious) Evil or religious good - there is only people, with all their flaws and illnesses and selflessness and selfishness and compassion and delusion and love and hatred and all the other myriad aspects of our natures and characteristics. I mostly think the "devil" and the various concepts of "hell" are part of our humanity, and something to be recognized and valued as such. Both of these beliefs have been responsible for countless terrible things, but also have helped guide and shape the human animal for thousands of years. This view is uncommon, I suspect. But I also believe in God, so ... paradox. Edited March 28, 2015 by Plastic Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted March 28, 2015 Administrator Share Posted March 28, 2015 I mostly think the "devil" and the various concepts of "hell" are part of our humanity, and something to be recognized and valued as such. Both of these beliefs have been responsible for countless terrible things, but also have helped guide and shape the human animal for thousands of years. This view is uncommon, I suspect. At risk of this being even further off topic. "hell" as a concept isn't thousands of years old. The current concept in Christianity of "burning for ever in hell" was first made up around 400AD. There is no similar tradition in the Old Testament nor in Judaism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post CrackpotForeigner Posted March 28, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted March 28, 2015 Well the bloke is getting his dying wish. His name and photograph are everywhere. If I were a member of his victims' families I'd be pretty peeved. Not that the press are going to stop with it any time. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted March 28, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) I mostly think the "devil" and the various concepts of "hell" are part of our humanity, and something to be recognized and valued as such. Both of these beliefs have been responsible for countless terrible things, but also have helped guide and shape the human animal for thousands of years. This view is uncommon, I suspect. At risk of this being even further off topic. "hell" as a concept isn't thousands of years old. The current concept in Christianity of "burning for ever in hell" was first made up around 400AD. There is no similar tradition in the Old Testament nor in Judaism. Well, no and yes? For me, it depends on how one defines "hell." I am surprised at your knowledge -- of anyone's knowledge -- of such an esoteric concept! Are you reading the early Church fathers? Or Richard Dawkins? Or both or neither? It really surprises me that people are so interested in all this God/atheism/hell/heaven stuff. I do find it all interesting from an anthropological perspective. Edited March 28, 2015 by Plastic Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted March 28, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) Well the bloke is getting his dying wish. His name and photograph are everywhere. If I were a member of his victims' families I'd be pretty peeved. Not that the press are going to stop with it any time. I sort of suspect that his motivations were NOT fame or notoriety. I think the theme of secrecy really sticks out with this character. He didn't leave a long trail of social media, for example, as far as we know. There were no manifestos or notes, as far as we know so far. SEE BELOW But I think it's absolutely spot-on that the victims' families must be filled with revulsion and pain and anger every time they see this man's face on a screen. Edited March 28, 2015 by Plastic Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 Some classic late night snowy banter to read this morning, wonderful. [emoji38] 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted March 28, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 28, 2015 I mostly think the "devil" and the various concepts of "hell" are part of our humanity, and something to be recognized and valued as such. Both of these beliefs have been responsible for countless terrible things, but also have helped guide and shape the human animal for thousands of years. This view is uncommon, I suspect. At risk of this being even further off topic. "hell" as a concept isn't thousands of years old. The current concept in Christianity of "burning for ever in hell" was first made up around 400AD. There is no similar tradition in the Old Testament nor in Judaism. Well, no and yes? For me, it depends on how one defines "hell." I am surprised at your knowledge -- of anyone's knowledge -- of such an esoteric concept! Are you reading the early Church fathers? Or Richard Dawkins? Or both or neither? It really surprises me that people are so interested in all this God/atheism/hell/heaven stuff. I do find it all interesting from an anthropological perspective. Again, we should take this over to the religion thread. As an atheist and an historian, I am very interested in the history of religion, unlike many believers, who often assume that theology is as it always was. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted March 28, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 28, 2015 I mostly think the "devil" and the various concepts of "hell" are part of our humanity, and something to be recognized and valued as such. Both of these beliefs have been responsible for countless terrible things, but also have helped guide and shape the human animal for thousands of years. This view is uncommon, I suspect. At risk of this being even further off topic. "hell" as a concept isn't thousands of years old. The current concept in Christianity of "burning for ever in hell" was first made up around 400AD. There is no similar tradition in the Old Testament nor in Judaism. Well, no and yes? For me, it depends on how one defines "hell." I am surprised at your knowledge -- of anyone's knowledge -- of such an esoteric concept! Are you reading the early Church fathers? Or Richard Dawkins? Or both or neither? It really surprises me that people are so interested in all this God/atheism/hell/heaven stuff. I do find it all interesting from an anthropological perspective. Again, we should take this over to the religion thread. As an atheist and an historian, I am very interested in the history of religion, unlike many believers, who often assume that theology is as it always was. Yes, agreed on all counts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) Some classic late night snowy banter to read this morning, wonderful. [emoji38] Edit: You're in a bit of difficulty if 5:21pm counts as morning. Edited March 28, 2015 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikantcpell Posted March 28, 2015 Share Posted March 28, 2015 (edited) I hate flying, i hate not being in control, dont know how many bad nightmares ive had involving plane crashes. So lucky i live in a country were the sun shines evry day of the year, so i dont have to travel somewhere...oh wait. Edited March 29, 2015 by Ikantcpell 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted March 28, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 28, 2015 Well the bloke is getting his dying wish. His name and photograph are everywhere. If I were a member of his victims' families I'd be pretty peeved. Not that the press are going to stop with it any time. It's starting to seem more and more like you are exactly right. Latest from the Washington Post: The picture emerging of Lubitz is one of a man haunted, whose ambition to fly brought him both pleasure and torment. Authorities have found doctors’ sick notes stating he was unfit for work, including on the day of the crash. On Saturday, Germany’s Bild newspaper quoted an interview with a former girlfriend of Lubitz’s who described a man who suffered from vivid nightmares and delusions of grandeur. “At night, he woke up and screamed: ‘We’re going down!’ because he had nightmares,” the former girlfriend told Bild. “He knew how to hide from other people what was really going on with him.” She added that last year he had warned, “One day I will do something that will change the whole system, and then everybody will know my name and remember it.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 I'd like to know what combination of pharmaceuticals he was taking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted March 31, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) Holy shite. This guy should not have been flying. Incredible. The lawsuits, I'm thinking, could actually destroy Deutsche Lufthansa AG? Is there tort reform in Europe? Will the suits occur in France and/or Germany? The victims' families are rightfully going to be outraged. Lufthansa knew of co-pilot’s previous ‘severe depression’ in 2009 By Anthony Faiola and Michael Birnbaum March 31 at 1:41 PM BERLIN — The co-pilot who crashed Flight 9525 into a mountainside last week had informed the German carrier Lufthansa in 2009 about a “previous episode of severe depression,” the airline said on Tuesday, immediately raising fresh questions about the company’s decision to allow Andreas Lubitz to continue his pilot’s training.. The admission that the company knew at least some of the history of Lubitz’s mental illness came after the company’s chief executive Carsten Spohr said publicly last week that Lufthansa -- parent of the budget airline Germanwings for which Lubitz worked -- had no previous knowledge of his medical history. Edited March 31, 2015 by Plastic Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 31, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 31, 2015 From the information available, I'm not sure Lufthansa can be found liable at this moment in time. The severe depressive episode was 6 years ago, during his training, he was declared fit to fly, and Lufthansa, due to patient confidentiality, were unlikely to have known the full extent of his issues (previous or existing). There will be pilots the world over with issues with depression. I'm not sure it's possible (or right) to simply lock people out of the profession on the basis they have depression going forward. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted March 31, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 31, 2015 From the information available, I'm not sure Lufthansa can be found liable at this moment in time. The severe depressive episode was 6 years ago, during his training, he was declared fit to fly, and Lufthansa, due to patient confidentiality, were unlikely to have known the full extent of his issues (previous or existing). There will be pilots the world over with issues with depression. I'm not sure it's possible (or right) to simply lock people out of the profession on the basis they have depression going forward. They don't need to be found liable. They will of course settle. That's always what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted March 31, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 31, 2015 Your post suggested the airline held liability, which I countered. Whether it goes to litigation and is settled is neither here nor there. On the basis of what we know, I don't believe, were it to proceed to a full court hearing and a judgement, that they would be found liable. It may well be the case, if families pursue the airline, they will settle for commercial reasons, but that didn't seem to be your point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ingram85 Posted March 31, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted March 31, 2015 I feel a huge step back for battling stigma coming on for mental health sufferers. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted March 31, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 31, 2015 Your post suggested the airline held liability, which I countered. Whether it goes to litigation and is settled is neither here nor there. On the basis of what we know, I don't believe, were it to proceed to a full court hearing and a judgement, that they would be found liable. It may well be the case, if families pursue the airline, they will settle for commercial reasons, but that didn't seem to be your point. Well, yes and no -- and maybe. I think LFT may be liable enough to prompt a settlement. I think in this case families will be able to file in different countries, too. There is no question lawsuits will be filed unless somehow Lufthansa does something preemptively. It's a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted March 31, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 31, 2015 I feel a huge step back for battling stigma coming on for mental health sufferers. Yep. That was my thought, too. Actions like this change attitudes in a big way. The victims of such acts of violence are legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackbauer24 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) I speak from my own point of view, but I too could be considered as suffering from severe depression on multiple occasions. I have seen doctors and taken medication. However, not once have I ever thought of killing other people - even if I've been less than concerned for my own life at points. People need to be very careful pigeon holeing mental health issues and restricting what they can and can't do based on a label. Clearly this man should not have been able to fly, screening should be in place to ensure (as best as is possible) that such circumstances can not happen again. But take away a whole host of job opportunities just because one man clearly had multiple mental health issues will result in thousands of people being at more risk from themselves as another shred of light is taken away. I think the issue with this event should be about safeguarding opportunities that place anyone in a position to do this much damage to families. It should not be about adding a stigma or risk to anyone with mental health problems - most people will suffer from them at some point in their life, whether they live with it daily or experience it after horrible periods in their life. Edited March 31, 2015 by jackbauer24 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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