What do you drive?

[sidcow]

29 minutes ago, Genie said:

I think there’s quite a bit more to it than that.

Firstly, the technology in Range Rovers is not different or inferior to other brands. So many of them get stolen is because they are so valuable (upto £200k each). If you’re a gang and going to risk prison to steal a car you ain’t gonna steal a Vauxhall Corsa.

Also, LR have spent a fortune 1) adding more and more security to the cars 2) setting up their own insurance company to insure the high end cars cheaper than external and 3) giving money to police to improve their ability to find the organised gangs and containers used to send the vehicles out of the country.

In short, your post couldn’t be more wrong  

Their vehicles ARE the most stolen. I think the top 3 most stolen vehicles are all different models of Range Rovers. 

They set up their own insurance precisely because regular insurers were refusing to cover them because they were stolen so often because they were so easy to steal. 

It's been a known thing in the insurance industry for years.  Things came to a head recently.  I've wondered why people keep buying them because they keep getting stolen. In fact I have found clients recently switching to other (equally expensive and high tech) brands because they're fed up. 

What's laughable though is that he criticises the insurance industry for using out of date data. An industry that lives or dies by its data analysis, that invests huge amounts of money go make absolutely certain its data is absolutely bang on.  It's like Aviva telling Land Rover that they have no idea how to build cars and tell them what they should be doing. 

Edited February 3 by sidcow

[Genie]

32 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Their vehicles ARE the most stolen. I think the top 3 most stolen vehicles are all different models of Range Rovers. 

This article using dvla data suggests differently. I assume this is what Adrian Mardell was alluding to.

1. Ford Fiesta

2. Ford Focus

3. VW Golf

4. Mercedes C-Class

5. RR Sport

35 minutes ago, sidcow said:

They set up their own insurance precisely because regular insurers were refusing to cover them because they were stolen so often because they were so easy to steal. 

Being stolen a lot is not the same as being easy to steal (relatively). The gangs target a weakness in all keyless entry vehicles by intercepting the wireless signal between the key and the car. There’s nothing weak about Land Rovers compared to other cars (it would make no sense at all for them to not use the best technology available). They are very desirable to thieves due to their value.

37 minutes ago, sidcow said:

It's been a known thing in the insurance industry for years.

True, expensive cars being targeted by thieves is nothing new.

40 minutes ago, sidcow said:

What's laughable though is that he criticises the insurance industry for using out of date data. An industry that lives or dies by its data analysis, that invests huge amounts of money go make absolutely certain its data is absolutely bang on.  It's like Aviva telling Land Rover that they have no idea how to build cars and tell them what they should be doing. 

As above, data shows they are not even second, third or fourth most stolen.

You said he’s blaming everyone but himself but they’ve introduced their own insurance (at great cost) and given something like £15m to Police to fund checks on containers at ports. Also updating older models with new software to make them harder go steal (with positive results, RR Sport thefts 30% down).

 

 

[Davkaus]

Sounds like LR have been paying up to an extent, but I hope all manufacturers who've pushed this keyless bullshit end up coughing up for what was a blatantly obvious security flaw.

[Genie]

4 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Sounds like LR have been paying up to an extent, but I hope all manufacturers who've pushed this keyless bullshit end up coughing up for what was a blatantly obvious security flaw.

A couple of years ago there was a list of the most secure cars in the UK and at the top it was something like a Vauxhall Astra because it was the only model which didn’t have keyless entry/start technology.

It is a strange situation. I wonder if brands offered an old school key to enter model and/or start it would be popular? I bet it would be, and I bet insurers would offer a good discount for that spec.

[sidcow]

24 minutes ago, Genie said:

This article using dvla data suggests differently. I assume this is what Adrian Mardell was alluding to.

1. Ford Fiesta

2. Ford Focus

3. VW Golf

4. Mercedes C-Class

5. RR Sport

Being stolen a lot is not the same as being easy to steal (relatively). The gangs target a weakness in all keyless entry vehicles by intercepting the wireless signal between the key and the car. There’s nothing weak about Land Rovers compared to other cars (it would make no sense at all for them to not use the best technology available). They are very desirable to thieves due to their value.

True, expensive cars being targeted by thieves is nothing new.

As above, data shows they are not even second, third or fourth most stolen.

You said he’s blaming everyone but himself but they’ve introduced their own insurance (at great cost) and given something like £15m to Police to fund checks on containers at ports. Also updating older models with new software to make them harder go steal (with positive results, RR Sport thefts 30% down).

 

 

Maybe it's the most stolen per per car on the road then.  Those in that list are all big sellers. 

The issue is their key codes are really easily cloned, much more so than other similar cars.  And pretty much every one stolen has the same hole punched in the dashboard. 

It's been going on for years and inside the industry regardless of that DVLA report I've heard multiple sources state that the top 3 or 4 most stolen cars are an Land Rover cars. 

The industry does not stop insuring certain vehicles for shits and giggles.  No company I'm aware of is refusing to cover Golfs of Fiestas.  It's a well known fact that Range Rovers are much easier to steal than other luxury cars.  The theft attractive ones you talk about.  It's only Range Rovers that have had this issue. 

Edited February 3 by sidcow

[Xela]

16 minutes ago, Genie said:

A couple of years ago there was a list of the most secure cars in the UK and at the top it was something like a Vauxhall Astra because it was the only model which didn’t have keyless entry/start technology.

Central locking doesn't even work on mine! Classic turn the key to open the door. The old styles always come back

 

[Genie]

5 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Maybe it's the most stolen per per car on the road then.  Those in that list are all big sellers. 

The issue is their key codes are really easily cloned, much more so than other similar cars.  And pretty much every one stolen has the same hole punched in the dashboard. 

It's been going on for years and inside the industry regardless of that DVLA report I've heard multiple sources state that the top 3 or 4 most stolen cars are an Land Rover cars. 

The industry does not stop insuring certain vehicles for shits and giggles.  No company I'm aware of is refusing to cover Golfs of Fiestas.  It's a well known fact that Range Rovers are much easier to steal than other luxury cars. 

Where are these well known facts about them being easier to steal / key codes easy to clone?

Insurers will be backing away because Range Rovers are £100-200k each and highly desirable to organised gangs for shipping overseas (versus 1/10th of that for Focus or Fiesta… and no serious criminal wants to go to jail for stealing a 60 bhp Fiesta 1.0 Ecoboost).

 

[Genie]

5 minutes ago, Xela said:

Central locking doesn't even work on mine! Classic turn the key to open the door. The old styles always come back

 

I used to have an N reg clio which had remote central locking, but you had to point the remote perfectly at the sensor by the rear view mirror. It was so fiddly it was easier to just put the key in and turn it  

[sidcow]

3 minutes ago, Genie said:

Where are these well known facts about them being easier to steal / key codes easy to clone?

Insurers will be backing away because Range Rovers are £100-200k each and highly desirable to organised gangs for shipping overseas (versus 1/10th of that for Focus or Fiesta… and no serious criminal wants to go to jail for stealing a 60 bhp Fiesta 1.0 Ecoboost).

 

Why are insurers not pulling away from BMW X5, Merc GLC, Audi Q7, Maserati Levante, Porsche Cayenne, Toyota Land Cruiser, Volvo XC9O? This is my job, I speak to motor fleet insurers on a daily basis. They have massive issues with Range Rovers.  They don't have the same issues with other similar vehicles. 

Every single insurer has the same view and the same message. Why is this even a story in the first place? Because it's what happening. 

Don't believe it?  Good for you. 

[sidcow]

I don't even get why people want these keyless start things.  I much prefer having a key. It's hardly a great inconvenience. 

[chrisp65]

We had a VW Beetle and the door locks didn’t work, couldn’t be locked. You just accepted they were always open, but had to remember if people were watching, that you had to do a performative turn of the key in the lock.

Loved that car.

 

On a positive note for Range Rover owners, if the insurance is going to be via JLR and slightly cheaper, this will give them more money for Botox and spray tan, so they’ll be well happy whilst parked on the pavement outside school doing a quick TikTok before picking up the twins, Ibiza and Air~Fryer.

 

 

 

 

[Genie]

10 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Why are insurers not pulling away from BMW X5, Merc GLC, Audi Q7, Maserati Levante, Porsche Cayenne, Toyota Land Cruiser, Volvo XC9O? This is my job, I speak to motor fleet insurers on a daily basis. They have massive issues with Range Rovers.  They don't have the same issues with other similar vehicles. 

Every single insurer has the same view and the same message. Why is this even a story in the first place? Because it's what happening. 

Don't believe it?  Good for you. 

Because they are less desirable to organised criminals, and cheaper. And there’s a big waiting list for RR’s.

I stand by the first post, it was completely incorrect.

The CEO didn’t blame everyone but himself. They aren’t the most stolen cars. There’s nothing to suggest they are easier to steal either.

Don’t believe the facts, good for you  

 

Edited February 3 by Genie

[Genie]

3 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I don't even get why people want these keyless start things.  I much prefer having a key. It's hardly a great inconvenience. 

Mine needs me to press the fob to open it, but then it’s keyless start. That seems to be a (slightly) more secure way. 

[chrisp65]

I have the best of both worlds. As long as my key is somewhere in my bag, it’s keyless entry and start, which is great.

But as a security measure, they’ve put a Skoda badge front and rear.

Genius.

 

 

 

[Seat68]

My Merc, that's my Merc, is fairly secure, except for the fact the fob needs new batteries and therefore it's hit or miss if I actually lock it or not. 

[Davkaus]

1 hour ago, Genie said:

Mine needs me to press the fob to open it, but then it’s keyless start. That seems to be a (slightly) more secure way. 

Still vulnerable to relay attacks to start if they just smash your window though, or is there more to it? On my car I've just turned off keyless entry, but still have to chuck the key in a faraday box because I suspect that it can still be trivially nicked with that approach.

I know some manufacturers are now having some kind of motion detection so the keyless stuff only works if the key has been jiggled about in the last minute, but even that is a half-baked solution to a self-inflicted problem. I see the odd fairly high-end car in car parks and driveways with disklocks on them these days, back to proper old school tech at the consumer's expense because the manufacturers have made their cars so insecure

 

[Genie]

12 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Still vulnerable to relay attacks to start if they just smash your window though, or is there more to it? On my car I've just turned off keyless entry, but still have to chuck the key in a faraday box because I suspect that it can still be trivially nicked with that approach.

I know some manufacturers are now having some kind of motion detection so the keyless stuff only works if the key has been jiggled about in the last minute, but even that is a half-baked solution to a self-inflicted problem. I see the odd fairly high-end car in car parks and driveways with disklocks on them these days, back to proper old school tech at the consumer's expense because the manufacturers have made their cars so insecure

 

It certainly isn’t 100% secure, just slightly more effort required by the thief if they really want my aging Ford Kuga.

I see more and more driveways by me with the bollards installed to stop the car being driven off.

Edited February 3 by Genie

[jackbauer24]

I don't know why the Ghost immobilisers aren't fitted to more cars. For those that don't know what that is, it's effectively some clever programming that turns the buttons in your dash/steering wheel in to viable buttons for a PIN that starts the car. All the benefits of keyless entry but with the added security of completely unique start sequence.

In my last car, the keyless entry opened the car up (so valuables could be stolen if key cloned/relayed/stolen from house) but the car would not move (the only real reason people want keys) until I presses something like Radio Preset 2, Up Volume, AC, Radio Preset4... Or whatever.

As far I'm aware, it's practically theft proof unless under duress.

Edit: or other similar systems!

Edited February 3 by jackbauer24

[Xela]

 

[Chindie]

Something a little different.

Obviously there's a few of these car repair channels, and this one is decent with less of the influencer/flash vehicle stuff (although he is trying to repair a Nissan GTR which looked increasingly... ambitious as he went).

Anyway this video is interesting. We all know about 'category' cars and these channels love them. But this highlights that that system is sometimes stupid. Both of the cars on the video are category S. The Polo is trashed, most of the front end gone. The S1 has a dent in the wing and a cracked bumper. It's been written off because the insurer couldn't secure parts to repair it, and didn't want to pay for a hire car for the owner while getting the parts, so they wrote it off. There's nothing wrong with it. Mental.