Why Paul Lambert should get the sack

[Risso]

 

 

 

 

While he had the remit of change DK was he forced into doing it so quickly or could it have been more gradual. Giving Bent the captaincy would suggest the latter but the real question should be has he improved our squad and one would have to say looking at the standard of football played and present points trend the answer would have to be no.

That may change though if he brings the right signings in when the window opens and I am prepared to give him that time to turn us around. That's why it's probably the most important transfer window coming up in Lambert's tenure and if backed by Lerner he must get it right this time with no more shocking purchases.

 

 

Good grief.....again with this nonsense.   That's not at all the real question AT ALL

 

Only in your fantasy world would you expect someone going from a £70m a year to a £35m a year wage bill to "improve" the squad!

 

We are in a cost-cutting operation - the real question is are we getting better value for the amount of resource employed and CLEARLY we are - Lambert earnt more points and better position than McL whilst utilising resource that cost and earnt massively less - so by any standard that is better

 

Is that the best that any manager could do? Possibly not - Rodgers or Moyes for example might do better. Is that better than any other manager that Villa could attract could do? probably yes

 

You have totally mis-understood the nature of the task facing us

 

 

The wages bill for 31 May 2011 was £83m, to 31 May 2012 was £70m.  I'd be absolutely astonished if the May 2013 accounts that are due out in a couple of months show that it's dropped to £35m.

 

 

Risso, you apparently work with figures - which part of my earlier post concerning the correlation between wages and performance do you disagree with?

 

I don't know exactly how much the the figure to May 2013 will be, but I know the run rate for wages at the moment must be massively down on McL reign

 

 

 

You seemed pretty sure that £35m was correct.

[TRO]

I don't know whether lambert will be here in the near future and I am not trying to belittle or dismiss the posters that have criticised him, because the poor football is evidence for us all to witness...Lambert may not pull through, but I hope he does.

...but I also, believe Lambert has not had a few "wounded soldiers "to deal with he has had a bloody "war zone" to contend with and no characters to help him.

This club is hard work at the best of times.... We have all give it large, we just have to see over the next few games with hopefully a few returnees and a few new faces to turn it around.

[VillaCas]

You seemed pretty sure that £35m was correct.

 

 

No just a ball-park figure

[alipali]

I think Paul has had enough of a chance to implement his tactics, style of play, buy players, sell players and get the squad he thinks can win. Clearly, his methods are failing.

 

The possession stats are almost unreadable. Against Swansea, another middling team, we could barely manage 25% ball possession. How on God's green earth can we expect to win. Slowly but surely form gets worse, lower class teams are picking us apart. The writing is on the wall; another mad scramble to stay up, but without Benteke getting good ball (how can he, we never have it in our possession) it's relegation time.

 

Sorry Paul, you've got to go!

Edited December 30, 2013 by alipali

[Villarocker]

The more Lambert praises our owner in the press the less sympathy I have for the constraints his working under.

John, isn't it blatantly obvious that he's kissing his are just to get him to free up some funds? He probably thinks the same of the owner as most of us. But, if he goes and says that he will A) Probably lose his job and Not look attractive to potential future employers.

By saying all that, he is clearly hoping the owner keeps faith with the big plan and goes into his pockets for the next step forward, in January!

[snowychap]

...the best differentials were Brendan Rodgers' Swansea (+9)...

Doesn't 18-11=7 ?

[Big_John_10]

The main reason why we are not playing decent football and picking up results is as other have said already on this thread. The loss of form of 4 of the main 11. No team can cope with that... especially not one the size of our club. We will come good again. Keep the faith.

Brilliant. You're gonna have a go at people on here and your best argument is keep the faith, we did it in the past.

Great stuff.

Good to see you read my post properly before vomiting.

No doubt you were calling for Lamberts head at the same point last season before we turned it around. History shows that he has turned things around before and this is a better solution than "Sack the manager" with very little thought about who is out there ready to replace him who could do a better job (until they lose a couple of games and then you want them sacked as well).

I don't care if he's sacked or stays, I have little faith in the owners finding better. You seem to dismiss any negative comments or comparisons with what went on previously because we've had one small good blip in a shocking 18 months

I don't dismiss any sensible comments at all. Personally I am not really either for or against Lambert as much as that may not be apparent from this thread. If he is sacked tomorrow, which he won't be, I wouldn't be upset I'd just be a little frustrated that he wasn't given the time to see out his rebuilding job and we would be back to square one yet again but this time another year and a half down the line.

I sympathise entirely with peoples frustrations at the lack of quality football being played, the lack of competitiveness which we are showing in games and the lack of entertainment. However, I do buy into the youth for the future policy and I think if Lambert can buy a couple of hard bastard midfielders with some leadership qualities in January to assist Vlaar in heading up the team then we are not too far away from a very talented squad with the correct blend of experience, youth and brute force.

It's plain to see to me that we are amiss of a lot of this leadership and brute force. These are the ingredients that are missing not the employment of the wrong manager. The fact that Agbonlahor is Captain when Vlaar is out is an absolute joke. The guy is a fantastic Villa servant but he is as much as a leader as I am a bluenose. I weep before every game when I see him as Captain and I am sure a number of the Villa squad do the same.

For these reasons I am willing to put up with the current regime to see what they can do over the January and summer transfer windows. I'm sure we are not far away from a very good squad and I'm even more sure that changing the management would only delay our progress even further. The fact Lambert has delivered this previously gives me hope that he will do it again in the future.

Good post and TBH not a million miles from where I am myself.

[Big_John_10]

Lambert is getting a better return points-wise than McL whilst spending far less - thats a good thing

Is it? I don't think it's a bad thing but I don't see how performing at a similar level to one of the worst managers we've ever had on a cheaper budget is a good thing? If he was performing well above mcleish it would be a good thing but he's not currently doing that.

[Electric Avenue]

Nice charts and all that but I go on what's in front of me on the football field. I've seen enough of this insipid shit from team lambert and I want them gone. He will take us down.

 

.......and bring in another manager, who will struggle with exactly the same problems, who will want to bring in his own players and 18 months down the line you will want him gone too.......and over and over

We don't necessarily need that major overhaul, just a manager who can extract the very best from a set of professional footballers, who has exceptional man management skills aswell as good coaches and is able to set teams up with a game plan , proper tactics and play players in their strongest position. I'd argue the very basics of a top flight manager. Of course lambert is totally unproven at this level and it certainly shows.

[VillaCas]

 

 

Nice charts and all that but I go on what's in front of me on the football field. I've seen enough of this insipid shit from team lambert and I want them gone. He will take us down.

 

.......and bring in another manager, who will struggle with exactly the same problems, who will want to bring in his own players and 18 months down the line you will want him gone too.......and over and over

We don't necessarily need that major overhaul, just a manager who can extract the very best from a set of professional footballers, who has exceptional man management skills aswell as good coaches and is able to set teams up with a game plan , proper tactics and play players in their strongest position. I'd argue the very basics of a top flight manager. Of course lambert is totally unproven at this level and it certainly shows.

 

 

Thanks for narrowing it down, so....were looking for a proven top flight manager, with exceptional man-management skills who will be prepared to work with the current squad and budget and presumably someone who is willing to take the same risk with their career and reputation that Lambert has taken and in return we promise to be patient for 12 months........any thoughts on who that might be?

[ROTTERDAM1982]

 Just a better manager with a system, and a knowledge of how to get the best out of players.

 

 Lets take Barry Bannan, looked distinctly average at VP, goes to Palace, struggles under Golom, Pulis comes in, a long ball manager, and plays Bannan in a free role, and he looks a much better player for it.PL has come in, and most players have not stepped up from last season.Not one player is playing better than towards the end of last season.Why is that?

[nick76]

Just a better manager with a system, and a knowledge of how to get the best out of players.

 

 Lets take Barry Bannan, looked distinctly average at VP, goes to Palace, struggles under Golom, Pulis comes in, a long ball manager, and plays Bannan in a free role, and he looks a much better player for it.PL has come in, and most players have not stepped up from last season.Not one player is playing better than towards the end of last season.Why is that?

are you really talking about Bannan like that, he's hasn't looked a better player at all. Bannan will always be that player who looks better on a highlights reel and even then over a very long period or short video clip.....98% ineffective, liability or didn't even know he was playing and 2% wonder pass or little flick

[briny_ear]

are you really talking about Bannan like that, he's hasn't looked a better player at all. Bannan will always be that player who looks better on a highlights reel and even then over a very long period or short video clip.....98% ineffective, liability or didn't even know he was playing and 2% wonder pass or little flick

I thought Bannan looked pretty good over 86 minutes in the Villa Palace match, where he played an important role in helping them outfox us. I also think Tony Pulis may just be the sort of manager we need at the moment. He has shown he is capable of getting the best out a limited squad, where Lambert had tended to show he can't. Edited December 30, 2013 by briny_ear

[drat01]

Quite simply Lambert has proven that he is not up the job that faces AVFC. Last year was a major embarrassment at times, this year we have followed on with similar woeful performances.

 

All I have heard of for the past few days is some pretty weak arguments trying to deflect any sort of scrutiny from Lambert and certainly not attributing any blame. We have the ridiculous situation on VT where fans so desperate for some sort of recognition that they hang off the quite sad words of someone basically playing them along with his so called link to Lambert. The reality is that certain elements need Lambert to continue with their job, you scratch my back and I will scratch yours etc

 

Re Lambert's performances we all know that the circumstances surrounding the club are tough, you can (and I do) argue that Lerner has gone too far but them's the rules that we play under at the moment and if you can't or wont play under them then the time is to move on.

 

I suspect that most of the people on VT are Villa fans (and the word most is a key one), and none of us like to see the club struggling. I have had the misfortune of seeing us drop into the third decision, seen a European cup winning side basically ripped apart and seen the club on it's proverbial knees. None of which is pleasurable. What the club is facing now is enormously tough and to get through that you need leadership and vision from the top and certainly from the management team. We all know the Randy situation is one that will not get a quick fix but the topic for this thread is the managerial one. I keep seeing graphs and charts and similar things as some sort of justification for the poor performance that Lambert and his coaching team have put in to date. The only real facts we should consider are things like record defeats, losing to 4 th division sides, coaching staff swearing at the fans, record runs for lack of clean sheets etc etc.

 

As said also all I ever seem to hear is - "Give Lambert some money and watch him then", but again surely all that is saying is that he is a cheque book manager? I wanted Lambert to do well, I wanted him at the club, but I was wrong. He reminds me so much of the many so called leading managers that were going to be the next best thing, the Paul Jewell's, Owen Coyle's, Burley etc etc.

 

It's a real shame because at the moment he is bigger than the club in many fans eyes. Look at the arguments and division his woeful performances cause. There is little real vision and football can be a cruel game and be very unforgiving on the weak.

 

If by some miracle he does turn things around then brilliant, because it will mean that the most important thing, AVFC, are doing well. I am truely not convinced that Paul Lambert and those he has brought in to help him are the answer to the problems we face

[Morpheus]

 

So let me get this straight if I may.

You have now gone from quoting our improvement in points total at the same stage last season (and I can understand why) to now quoting statistics which apparently excuse our performances under Lambert because we pay low wages. In answering your point I asked you what wages were Gabby, Vlaar, Delph, Weimann, Benteke and Guzan on. You ignored the question.

I then asked you if there is a correlation in performance to wages why is Bent on more wages than Benteke ANSWERED and then quoted you QPR last season who had a high wage outlay yet were relegated. ANSWERED Reading your above post you have yet again failed to reply in context preferring to use sarcasm concerning both Bent and Redknapp. One would have hoped you would have stopped doing that after Berbatov and Adam PREVIOUSLY ANSWERED made you choke on your own opinion of them but obviously ignorance is bliss. LOL

Unless you have the financial clout of the top four, in our mini league there really is no correlation in wages to performance PROOF??? it just comes down to how well you are organised and coached and it is no surprise at all that your very own poster boy according to HH is finally seeing the error of his ways and looking to purchase more experienced players, em, who apparently are not going to be asking the earth in wages. Strange you can actually do that VillaCas isn't it.

Finally just before you go off on another one of your disappearing acts here is a much more relevant stat for you. We'll three actually.

Under your very own poster boy this season we have won two home games in ten with the lowest goals scored in all four divisions. We've won eleven games out of the last forty eight and we're just through an easier set of fixtures.

I note since results are the most important stats of all you have yet to show a result stat table I have absolutely no idea what a result stat table is?? concerning Lambert. I wonder why that is?

 

This is not meant as an insult (truly) but you really don't understand the argument do you?

 

I really can't be bothered to go explain it to you, again

You've no idea what a result table is yet you can post graphs concerning wage to point ratio?

 

Ok i'll make it easy for you then.

 

There must be some kind of graph, table, that can show our results since Lambert became our manager. I mean that would show beyond a shadow of a doubt how successful or how poor Lambert's performance has been. Trying to pull obscure stats out of your arse to prove that Lambert has somehow actually  overachieved with us even though everything else would suggest that he has been a complete disaster just won't cut it with the majority here!

Edited December 30, 2013 by Morpheus

[Morpheus]

You're right - we should be better this season - the reason we are not is due I think to a number of factors - i) Bad form of certain players, Weimann, Lowton, Benteke etc, ii) Injures to key players Vlaar, Delph, Okore, Benteke  and finally  iii) other teams more familiar with our style

 

There is a load of nonesense currently being spouted about "young and hungry" has failed and now there is a rush for experience. In his first season I think Lambert expected that Ireland, Bent, Dunne and Zog could provide the experience to help the youngsters but none really stepped up to the plate. During last summer Lambert enquired about Sissoko (not experience but quality) and Kiyotake and also apparently wanted Barry and Lukaku but funds were not available - it may be that Lambert felt like whatever was available experience-wise was not VFM or any better than what was here already

 

Lambert's achilles heel is the signing of Tonev and Helenious which although only for relatively small amounts have failed to deliver so far

Hold on here a minute. You can't have it both ways here. You've continually stated on site that it was in the remit of Lambert from the start to get rid of all the high earners as we couldn't afford their wages yet its now he has got rid of them because he they didn't step up to the plate?

 

Do you honestly beleive Lerner will continue to foot the bill for £60k a week players??????

 

Under McL this bunch of misfits earnt 15 points from there last 19 games. They were not worth £6k a week, let alone £60k! Lambert rightly got rid of as many as possible and would have got rid of all of them all if there had been any takers at all. The fact that no-one will buy any of them speaks volumes.

 

Players like Ireland and Bent were given the chance to put themselves in the shop window and failed spectacularly. Bent in particular let Lambert down, even when he was given the captaincy. The fact that he has gone on to Fulham an can't get in their team says it all. Some of the reviews of his rare performances have been spectaculalry damning. To quote a Villa coach " Bent wouldn't run 15 yards for you"

Which part of that actually answers why you've completely contradicted yourself in two statements?

[markavfc40]

Quite simply Lambert has proven that he is not up the job that faces AVFC. Last year was a major embarrassment at times, this year we have followed on with similar woeful performances.

 

All I have heard of for the past few days is some pretty weak arguments trying to deflect any sort of scrutiny from Lambert and certainly not attributing any blame. We have the ridiculous situation on VT where fans so desperate for some sort of recognition that they hang off the quite sad words of someone basically playing them along with his so called link to Lambert. The reality is that certain elements need Lambert to continue with their job, you scratch my back and I will scratch yours etc

 

Re Lambert's performances we all know that the circumstances surrounding the club are tough, you can (and I do) argue that Lerner has gone too far but them's the rules that we play under at the moment and if you can't or wont play under them then the time is to move on.

 

I suspect that most of the people on VT are Villa fans (and the word most is a key one), and none of us like to see the club struggling. I have had the misfortune of seeing us drop into the third decision, seen a European cup winning side basically ripped apart and seen the club on it's proverbial knees. None of which is pleasurable. What the club is facing now is enormously tough and to get through that you need leadership and vision from the top and certainly from the management team. We all know the Randy situation is one that will not get a quick fix but the topic for this thread is the managerial one. I keep seeing graphs and charts and similar things as some sort of justification for the poor performance that Lambert and his coaching team have put in to date. The only real facts we should consider are things like record defeats, losing to 4 th division sides, coaching staff swearing at the fans, record runs for lack of clean sheets etc etc.

 

As said also all I ever seem to hear is - "Give Lambert some money and watch him then", but again surely all that is saying is that he is a cheque book manager? I wanted Lambert to do well, I wanted him at the club, but I was wrong. He reminds me so much of the many so called leading managers that were going to be the next best thing, the Paul Jewell's, Owen Coyle's, Burley etc etc.

 

It's a real shame because at the moment he is bigger than the club in many fans eyes. Look at the arguments and division his woeful performances cause. There is little real vision and football can be a cruel game and be very unforgiving on the weak.

 

If by some miracle he does turn things around then brilliant, because it will mean that the most important thing, AVFC, are doing well. I am truely not convinced that Paul Lambert and those he has brought in to help him are the answer to the problems we face

 

 

Great post Ian. As someone that has backed Lambert heavily from the moment he arrived right up till very recently I wish I could put up an argument. Being honest though aside from saying I have a little bit of blind faith left in Lambert and a real fear of who Lerner would replace him with, I have little else to stump up.

[Morpheus]

I believe Lambert was right to freeze out the overpaid, underperformers (I also believe that this was part of the agreement with Lerner when he took the job)

I believe that the £40m figure that is constantly trotted out is a red herring - in the same period we have lost players that cost double that to recruit

 

Just want to reply to the two points in bold as we've debated everything else.

 

I am also in no doubt that removing under-performing players on high wages was in the remit but any manager would want to do that anyway irrespective of the budget. Where we differ is that he did not have to use the guillotine on the first team in the way that he did. I have seen no quote or anything substantiated to suggest differently. What I have seen however is a quote from the chief executive stating that Lambert had a budget and it was up to him how he spent it. That's right he got rid of some and kept some - he discarded/did not renew Heskey, Holman, Collins, Cuellar, Makoun, Warnock and Hutton. He kept Given, Ireland, Dunne, Bent, Bannan, Zog, Gabby, Andi, Delph, Clark, Baker. He would have kept Petrov too if that had been an option which sadly it was not. Given, Ireland, Dunne, Bent and Bannan have since been discarded as they didn't perform and/or didn't have the right attitude and/or we already had a better option. There is not one player discarded (with the obvious exception of Petrov) who I wish was still here

 

Concerning your second point I think Risso has quoted stats showing an expenditure of 40m plus. Unsurprisingly you've misunderstood, again. We've paid out around £40m in fees whislt losing players that cost us around £80m in fees - a net outgoing of talent of £40m

Simple question even for you to understand.

How much has Lambert spent since he's been our manager?

[drat01]

Mark I will say it again and again, I really hope I (we) are wrong about Lambert and the way the club is going because the opposite of what we have at the moment is success and a team playing good football.

 

Nothing would give me more pleasure than to say "blimey I was wrong there about Lambert and I hope none of the big boy's get him ........"

[markavfc40]

Mark I will say it again and again, I really hope I (we) are wrong about Lambert and the way the club is going because the opposite of what we have at the moment is success and a team playing good football.

 

Nothing would give me more pleasure than to say "blimey I was wrong there about Lambert and I hope none of the big boy's get him ........"

 

And you see I think this may be a point that is being missed by some. There is not one single Villa fan that doesn't want Lambert to succeed. Now some may not have been too keen on him from the start and therefore lost patience with him/faith in him some time ago. Then there will be some like me that may have wanted him to replace Houllier and McLeish and been over the moon when he joined and been far more patient with him than any other manager given the tripe served up and have chosen to blame Lerner for many of our woes. Then there will be some who still back him heavily despite most of the evidence suggesting they shouldn't.

Whatever bracket any of us fall into the bottom line is we all desperately want him to succeed. It is genuinely a real kick in the bollocks to me that the guy is struggling so much and week after week we are serving up utter garbage. I still hope he can turn it around starting Wednesday but sadly I can no longer give any reasonable explanation as to why I think he will.

Edited December 30, 2013 by markavfc40