Morpheus Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 (edited) While he had the remit of change DK was he forced into doing it so quickly or could it have been more gradual. Giving Bent the captaincy would suggest the latter but the real question should be has he improved our squad and one would have to say looking at the standard of football played and present points trend the answer would have to be no. That may change though if he brings the right signings in when the window opens and I am prepared to give him that time to turn us around. That's why it's probably the most important transfer window coming up in Lambert's tenure and if backed by Lerner he must get it right this time with no more shocking purchases. We are in a cost-cutting operation - the real question is are we getting better value for the amount of resource employed and CLEARLY we are - Lambert earnt more points and better position than McL whilst utilising resource that cost and earnt massively less - so by any standard that is better That's a very fair point. However, after achieving that you would expect us to improve further this season. Now, points wise, we may be better off. But, football wise, we are going backwards and playing arguably worse football than under McLeish's short reign. Also bear in mind that this is Lambert's second season. We only suffered one season of McLeish so we don't know whether the football would have actually improved in his second season. FFS Paul, sort it out mate. You've even got me using the worst Villa manager ever in a discussion because our football has become so bad! Hopefully, with a creative midfielder brought in, we can become a much better team than we are now. You're right - we should be better this season - the reason we are not is due I think to a number of factors - i) Bad form of certain players, Weimann, Lowton, Benteke etc, ii) Injures to key players Vlaar, Delph, Okore, Benteke and finally iii) other teams more familiar with our style There is a load of nonesense currently being spouted about "young and hungry" has failed and now there is a rush for experience. In his first season I think Lambert expected that Ireland, Bent, Dunne and Zog could provide the experience to help the youngsters but none really stepped up to the plate. During last summer Lambert enquired about Sissoko (not experience but quality) and Kiyotake and also apparently wanted Barry and Lukaku but funds were not available - it may be that Lambert felt like whatever was available experience-wise was not VFM or any better than what was here already Lambert's achilles heel is the signing of Tonev and Helenious which although only for relatively small amounts have failed to deliver so far Hold on here a minute. You can't have it both ways here. You've continually stated on site that it was in the remit of Lambert from the start to get rid of all the high earners as we couldn't afford their wages yet its now he has got rid of them because he they didn't step up to the plate? Edited December 30, 2013 by Morpheus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 VillaCas - You've persuaded me into giving him a bit more time, as long as he is backed in the transfer market this January as per HH's posts. However I have this niggling worry that if this doesn't stop now and we do cross that line into underachievement it might be too late. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstonMartin82 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 We all know McLeish was awful we all know how bad that team was. So why is it worthy of praise or a sign of good things to come that we're performing to a similar standard with less money spent on wages? I don't get that point at all. If McLeish had done a great job and we were doing similar with a cheaper budget then yes, I could see how that's worthy of praise but being pretty much just as crap but spending less makes no sense how its deemed a positive. If all we're to expect is to be like McLeish but cheaper then what are the expectations for the future? It is a lazy argument to compare Lambert to McLeish and is only done to tarnish Lambert in the debate. The fact of the matter is that McLeish's Villa team scored more than one goal on only THREE occasions. Lambert's Villa team won praise last season for the entertaining football that was played. Going from McLeish's dire football to entertaining football was a job well done. Absolutely no one is arguing that the last couple of months have been dreadful with the football boring but the fact of the matter is Lambert has produced entertaining football in the past unlike McLeish and is capable of doing so again. If you judge over a longer period of one month you wouldn't have the same view point. The only problem with doing this is that it doesn't suit your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 We all know McLeish was awful we all know how bad that team was. So why is it worthy of praise or a sign of good things to come that we're performing to a similar standard with less money spent on wages? I don't get that point at all. If McLeish had done a great job and we were doing similar with a cheaper budget then yes, I could see how that's worthy of praise but being pretty much just as crap but spending less makes no sense how its deemed a positive. If all we're to expect is to be like McLeish but cheaper then what are the expectations for the future? It is a lazy argument to compare Lambert to McLeish and is only done to tarnish Lambert in the debate. The fact of the matter is that McLeish's Villa team scored more than one goal on only THREE occasions. Lambert's Villa team won praise last season for the entertaining football that was played. Going from McLeish's dire football to entertaining football was a job well done. Absolutely no one is arguing that the last couple of months have been dreadful with the football boring but the fact of the matter is Lambert has produced entertaining football in the past unlike McLeish and is capable of doing so again. If you judge over a longer period of one month you wouldn't have the same view point. The only problem with doing this is that it doesn't suit your argument. It's longer than a month. I'd say the football has been generally dreadful since the Liverpool game, so that's 4 months. For the first 5 months of last season too it was more than a little disappointing. It's fairer to say that we played good stuff for 3 months of last season and everything else under Lambert has been naff. It has developed into something every bit as bad as the football witnessed under McLeish. Worse even. Though he has shown he is capable of producing decent stuff. If he hadn't we wouldn't be having this debate, we'd be in the championship. It needs to happen again, unlike McLeish he can't organise us well enough to survive playing the brand of football we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstonMartin82 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Semantics. The point being that McLeish wasn't capable of playing entertaining football. Not even for a game. If I recall correctly he played 7 defenders against Spurs 2 years ago? Lambert has produced it before and is capable of producing it again. The football hasn't been good enough but to compare everything to McLeish is a step too far. Things can and will improve under Lambert this I am sure and fans losing the faith this early on does nothing to help the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstonMartin82 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 The main reason why we are not playing decent football and picking up results is as other have said already on this thread. The loss of form of 4 of the main 11. No team can cope with that... especially not one the size of our club. We will come good again. Keep the faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Semantics. The point being that McLeish wasn't capable of playing entertaining football. Not even for a game. If I recall correctly he played 7 defenders against Spurs 2 years ago? Lambert has produced it before and is capable of producing it again. The football hasn't been good enough but to compare everything to McLeish is a step too far. Things can and will improve under Lambert this I am sure and fans losing the faith this early on does nothing to help the club. Semantics? Timelines aren't semantic, they're fact. Based on opinion granted, but you can't argue that the number 4 actually means the number 1. Well you could, this is VillaTalk. It's every bit as bad as it was under McLeish. Except McLeish had the balls to admit it and go the full hog. That's no defence of the man, it was **** horrible. So is this, it's just a less organised version of horrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstonMartin82 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Semantics in that McLeish isn't capable of producing an entertaining team and Lambert is. Just not with any of the attacking players in form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Semantics in that McLeish isn't capable of producing an entertaining team and Lambert is. Just not with any of the attacking players in form. I see. Then yes, I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpheus Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere but more of the same from Lambert. http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~3596717,00.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 The main reason why we are not playing decent football and picking up results is as other have said already on this thread. The loss of form of 4 of the main 11. No team can cope with that... especially not one the size of our club. We will come good again. Keep the faith. Brilliant. You're gonna have a go at people on here and your best argument is keep the faith, we did it in the past. Great stuff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 The main reason why we are not playing decent football and picking up results is as other have said already on this thread. The loss of form of 4 of the main 11. No team can cope with that... especially not one the size of our club. We will come good again. Keep the faith. Brilliant. You're gonna have a go at people on here and your best argument is keep the faith, we did it in the past. Great stuff. Is his best argument not that 4 of our best players are either out of form or injured? Or did you not read the post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 See I'd have argued that form is often coachable and that as a result the coaching staff need to be held accountable, you went for the easy option BJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 See I'd have argued that form is often coachable and that as a result the coaching staff need to be held accountable, you went for the easy option BJ. Yeah that's better. I'll put that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere but more of the same from Lambert. http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~3596717,00.html Manager in 'talking positively on the OS' shocker. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Not sure if this has been posted elsewhere but more of the same from Lambert.http://www.avfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10265~3596717,00.html Manager in 'talking positively on the OS' shocker. My thoughts exactly. I've no idea why anyone over the age of 14 pays close attention to these sorts of articles. I've not actually read it by the way! Anything of interest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 The more Lambert praises our owner in the press the less sympathy I have for the constraints his working under. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 The more Lambert praises our owner in the press the less sympathy I have for the constraints his working under. It's good business practice. Not that I'd know about such things, swearing at customers and what not. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Steve Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Reminds me how people critique his post-match talks by praising the players even when we lose. Duh, doing the opposite would destroy their fragile confidence. What does anyone honestly expect him to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 The more Lambert praises our owner in the press the less sympathy I have for the constraints his working under. It's good business practice. Not that I'd know about such things, swearing at customers and what not. How so? Surely all it does is put more pressure on himself and make people ignore what ever constraints he's been put under. If Lerner's such a brilliant owner to work for then Lambert must be even worse producing this level of football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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