The History Thread

[mjmooney]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Aberfan, 21st October, 1966

116 children and 28 adults killed under a coal spoil slip that had been knowingly built up over the village school and on top of a natural spring.

The Coal Board were found guilty, but not prosecuted. The NCB refused to make other similar spoil heaps safe as it would cost too much. Eventually, public donations were forcibly taken from the relief fund by the government to contribute to the removal of other similar spoil tips.

The NCB offered £50 compensation per family, regardless of the number of dead per family. This was resisted by what the NCB described as 'a hardcore of parents looking to capitalize'.

The money raised by public donation was initially stopped from being distributed by The Charities Commission, they required proof that individual parents had suffered sufficiently and had been sufficiently close to their children to warrant a pay out.

I remember it well. I was 12 years old, and it shocked me to the core. Utterly horrific. 

[colhint]

I was a small kid then. It was the first bit of news I could understand was important. The scenes were harrowing. 

[peterms]

Long thread here that may be of interest.

 

[coda]

That Peter Jackson WWI doc They Shall Not Grow Old was amazing. It's only on the iplayer for six days if you want to see it.

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, coda said:

That Peter Jackson WWI doc They Shall Not Grow Old was amazing. It's only on the iplayer for six days if you want to see it.

Agreed.

 

Found it a bit slow at first, but worth sticking with it. The adaption of the original film once they showed that was quite something. Just the adding of a hint of blood red, smoke and flies in a few frames transformed some of those images. 

[maqroll]

Ambush

 

[tonyh29]

26 minutes ago, maqroll said:

Ambush

 

bit of background on that here

On 15 May 1992, the JNA withdrew from its Tuzla barracks in a column of vehicles. After an attempt to leave at 14:00, the convoy was stopped at a checkpoint by elements of the Bosnia and Herzegovina TO, and was sent back to the barracks. The column left the barracks again at 19:00, heading north-east towards Bijeljina via the Brčko road. The lead vehicle contained the commander of the JNA garrison, Lieutenant Colonel Mile Dubajić, and his vehicle was followed by one containing members of the Bosnia and Herzegovina TO. When the convoy reached the intersection with the road leading east to Simin Han, it came under small arms fire from members of the Bosnia and Herzegovina TO.

According to an indictment issued by the Office of the War Crimes Prosecutor of the Republic of Serbia in the District Court of Belgrade War Crimes Chamber on 9 November 2007, at least 92 members of the JNA were killed in the attack on the convoy, a further 33 were wounded, and a number of military vehicles, including ambulances, were also destroyed. The names of those killed and wounded in the attack were listed in the indictment.

[maqroll]

@tonyh29 What isn't clear to me is if BiH soldiers were part of the convoy, were their vehicles struck as well? Mistaken friendly fire?

[tonyh29]

56 minutes ago, maqroll said:

@tonyh29 What isn't clear to me is if BiH soldiers were part of the convoy, were their vehicles struck as well? Mistaken friendly fire?

the wiki page refers to "unknown but at least 1 injured "  , so it suggests the escorts were out the way before the attack began 

but from my visit to Sarajevo and the war themed tour I went on , that was one **** up war and anything could have happened .. even now in the Serb republic part of  the outskirts of Sarajevo there are a few monuments to Serb generals who committed atrocities with words along the lines of " Thanks for the good work " 

[maqroll]

10 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

the wiki page refers to "unknown but at least 1 injured "  , so it suggests the escorts were out the way before the attack began 

but from my visit to Sarajevo and the war themed tour I went on , that was one **** up war and anything could have happened .. even now in the Serb republic part of  the outskirts of Sarajevo there are a few monuments to Serb generals who committed atrocities with words along the lines of " Thanks for the good work " 

Twitter murmurings lately about a Croatian false flag op in BiH. Seems like the whole area could easily slip back into war again

[Chindie]

In fairness Serbs and Croatians despise each other. You could probably find some 'patriotic' Serbs claiming Croatia was making the sun set every day.

[mjmooney]

Balkanisation.

Funny, Yugoslavia seemed to work OK. Still, they've all Got Their Freedom Back. 

[El Zen]

14 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Balkanisation.

Funny, Yugoslavia seemed to work OK. Still, they've all Got Their Freedom Back. 

My in-laws will not stand for any criticism of Tito what so ever. I tried to bring up democracy and human rights and other such trivialities, but they would have none of it and I’ve learned my lesson: Just say ‘Josip Broz, dobar skroz’ and smile. 

I can’t really blame them, though. They had to flee their home, as young new parents, because of a civil war that was entirely unthinkable for them growing up. The country they grew up in was, for them, stable, tinted by adolescent romanticism, everyone got along and there were jobs for everyone. Now, it’s a conflict-ridden mess of mass unemployment and corruption, still hanging in limbo full of ethnic tensions more than twenty years on from Dayton. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Michelsen

[tonyh29]

 

Just now, mjmooney said:

Yugoslavia seemed to work OK

you could say the same with the USSR i suppose  but ethnic tensions started pretty much before Tito's corpse was in the ground  ... well tbf they started long before that but the old strong foot on the back of the neck kept them in check

 

[El Zen]

18 minutes ago, Chindie said:

In fairness Serbs and Croatians despise each other. You could probably find some 'patriotic' Serbs claiming Croatia was making the sun set every day.

And they both hate Bosniaks. And Bosniaks really hate them too*

 

 

*Not true for everyone, of course, but being in Bosnia during Croatia’s world cup success last summer was f***ing tense. 

Edited April 1, 2019 by Michelsen

[maqroll]

6 minutes ago, Michelsen said:

 

*Not true for everyone, of course, but being in Bosnia during Croatia’s world cup success last summer was f***ing tense. 

How so? What did you see?

[El Zen]

26 minutes ago, maqroll said:

How so? What did you see?

Mostly just obscene amounts of vulgar Croat patriotism/nationalism from ethnically Croatian Bosnians, but also drink-fuelled vandalism towards Bosniak areas. And, obviously, just the absurdity of such a large proportion of a country’s population identifying as belonging to a different nation than the one they were born and have lived all their lives in. I know it’s not a black and white issue, but it’s a strange situation for a country to be in. I never felt any actual threat or discomfort, but my father in law was fuming at the whole spectacle. 

[slovenian]

upsetting

4 hours ago, mjmooney said:

Funny, Yugoslavia seemed to work OK

Yes, it may seemed so, but it really didn't work. Very, very different nations were glued together by propaganda. It was only a question of time...

 

3 hours ago, Michelsen said:

My in-laws will not stand for any criticism of Tito what so ever.

Interestingly enough, most of 70+  year-olds from ex yu countries still defend him and his regime. It was a decent life for all that didn't think or speak outside the box. If you did, you were sent to Goli otok (Bare island).

I was eleven when the war started in slovenia. I was on by bicycle with my friends on the bridge, 300 meters from my home, when the barricades were placed in the afternoon. When the first shots fired, we were all sent home by my friends father that we didn't even know was in special forces. Grown adult policeman were panicking like little c**s and drove off in their cars. Three JNA soldiers died on that bridge that night. They were all draftees, unlucky to be there, serving under old army officers, trying to rescue the myth of yugoslavia... I remember my father telling us to lower all the blinds, closing lights, listening to the gunfire and hoping for the best.

There are so many upsetting videos on youtube of that pointless war - father finding his dead son, brother, etc. It's hard to believe eu let that shit drag for so long...

Edited April 1, 2019 by slovenian

[Pelle]

4 hours ago, Michelsen said:

And they both hate Bosniaks. And Bosniaks really hate them too*

 

 

*Not true for everyone, of course, but being in Bosnia during Croatia’s world cup success last summer was f***ing tense. 

You're probably right, but I have a fair few at work who're from FY. I think all in all we've had more than 15, which of course isn't that many, but still a few. And most of them, except for one croatian who dpesn't care abot football and a serbian, cheer for all the national teams from FY when they play. But then again, I guess it's very different to be from FY and live in Sweden and actually live in one of the countries now. Living here you're from kind of the same area which once was your country, living down there they're bitter rivals and neighbours. If you get what I mean.

[maqroll]

This is an interesting video of Croat army entering a Serb area during the final days of the entire war.