The History Thread

[villa4europe]

I found hardly any Prussian stuff, a little bit of WW2 stuff and then a lot of anti Russian Cold War stuff, checkpoint Charlie is superb, the new stuff there is really nice and unsurprisingly there's a lot of new architecture there (potzdammer platz etc) iirc the zoo was shit, the people are great, didn't bother with the hardcore leather clad nightclub stuff

[chrisp65]

@mjmooney @lapal_fan

We should really shuffle over to the travel section.

We went to Berlin a few months ago. I got lucky with some work coinciding with a half term. 

Mike, there's plenty of 'old' stuff to see, from the rejuvenated Brandenberg gate, the walk through the Tiergarten, the Prussian Victory Column, passing plenty of statues and monuments is fascinating. There's plenty of history, much of it with shrapnel damage. The Bismark Memorial is incredible and strangely chilling, it includes Mother Germany with her foot firmly on the head of a defeated lion. No idea what that symbolised!

Then there's the preserved Russian Memorial in it's 50's communist splendour. There's even a tacky remnant of checkpoint Charlie which is a bit touristy, but walk two blocks and it's all there to see.

The Berlin Wall and the various museums I had no itention of visiting, I'm so glad I did, just amazing.

The zoo is spectacular.

Stunning city and super friendly.

[lapal_fan]

Just now, mjmooney said:

Never been to Berlin, would like to go, but... 

I have this mental picture of pre-war (and immediate post-war) Berlin which doesn't chime with what I assume is now a very modern city. I fear I would find that disappointing. 

Absolutely not!

There is a very stark difference between East/West.  The West is full of nice, terracotta roofed houses, lot's of different types of buildings etc.

The East is full of block style straight roads, with cheap housing (all the same style).

Of course there are parts where there are new buildings, but that adds the charm for me.. It's proof that Berlin is finally "free" of any oppressive divides.

The city is so very flat, with only a couple of skyscrapers, the most obvious being TV Tower, which is 369m tall, with a restaurant/bar at the top - designed in East Berlin as a big F you to the west (styled on the Russian Sputniks no less, it's like going into a Bond Villains lair!

We went to the Templehofer Feld - a disused Airport, built in 1936 by the Nazi regime.  Obviously it has history with the Berlin Airlift/U.S air force until the early 90s and then used as a commerical airports for small jets until 2009.  Great tour guide for 2 hours for 20 euro.

We went to the Olympic Stadion to watch Hertha Berlin Vs FC Darmstadt - the stadium being build for the 36 olympics where Jesse Owens won and Hitler turned his back on him.  The bell is still outside and you can tour around it.

Then of course there are parts of the Berlin Wall still around, a GDR Tower, which you can climb (3.50), of which there are only 3 left, kept open by Berliners. 

Honestly Mooney, I've been twice and I've barely scratched the surface.  Someone of your generation, with your knowledge would be blown away by it. 

You can get there for £69 quid, stay in one of the hostels for 15 quid a night (obviously there are many hotels too) and use the excellent train system, which gives you access to S-bahn (over ground), U-bahn (underground), trams, Hop on Hop off sightseeing buses or normal buses.  We had Welcome to Berlin cards which cost 34.50 euro for 4 days!!

It's reasonable, the people are mostly friendly (we went as part of an 11 man stag do group, so a couple of grumpy people who expect you to be arseholes) and the place is incredible.

Go this year!!!!

[lapal_fan]

just for your record, we were there for 3 whole days;

https://www.google.sk/maps/@52.5123058,13.3450646,12.5z/data=!4m2!6m1!1szyy6IHF4k96E.kUz1ok1VgPY4?hl=en

That's a map of the stuff we did.

Day 1 was walking tour (done by me as I'd done that stuff before)

Day 2 was Olympic Stadium football game (very fun!)

Day 3 was Templehofer Feld tour (absolutely brilliant)

If you're seriously thinking of going, but need some ideas, let me (and Chrisp by the sounds of it) know, and we can help you out.

As I said, I haven't done any of the actual walk in museums, which are free with a Welcome to Berlin card - but I've done most of the landmarks.

Edited May 10, 2016 by lapal_fan

[mjmooney]

23 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

Absolutely not!

There is a very stark difference between East/West.  The West is full of nice, terracotta roofed houses, lot's of different types of buildings etc.

The East is full of block style straight roads, with cheap housing (all the same style).

Of course there are parts where there are new buildings, but that adds the charm for me.. It's proof that Berlin is finally "free" of any oppressive divides.

The city is so very flat, with only a couple of skyscrapers, the most obvious being TV Tower, which is 369m tall, with a restaurant/bar at the top - designed in East Berlin as a big F you to the west (styled on the Russian Sputniks no less, it's like going into a Bond Villains lair!

We went to the Templehofer Feld - a disused Airport, built in 1936 by the Nazi regime.  Obviously it has history with the Berlin Airlift/U.S air force until the early 90s and then used as a commerical airports for small jets until 2009.  Great tour guide for 2 hours for 20 euro.

We went to the Olympic Stadion to watch Hertha Berlin Vs FC Darmstadt - the stadium being build for the 36 olympics where Jesse Owens won and Hitler turned his back on him.  The bell is still outside and you can tour around it.

Then of course there are parts of the Berlin Wall still around, a GDR Tower, which you can climb (3.50), of which there are only 3 left, kept open by Berliners. 

Honestly Mooney, I've been twice and I've barely scratched the surface.  Someone of your generation, with your knowledge would be blown away by it. 

You can get there for £69 quid, stay in one of the hostels for 15 quid a night (obviously there are many hotels too) and use the excellent train system, which gives you access to S-bahn (over ground), U-bahn (underground), trams, Hop on Hop off sightseeing buses or normal buses.  We had Welcome to Berlin cards which cost 34.50 euro for 4 days!!

It's reasonable, the people are mostly friendly (we went as part of an 11 man stag do group, so a couple of grumpy people who expect you to be arseholes) and the place is incredible.

Go this year!!!!

OK, you've whetted my appetite. The only jobstopper now is the missus, who has no interest in that sort of history, and is pretty much antipathetic to Germany - oddly, because she loves the Heimat TV films (massively recommended BTW). I think she thinks the food would be all beer and sausages (which, tbf, would suit me just fine!) 

[lapal_fan]

Just now, mjmooney said:

OK, you've whetted my appetite. The only jobstopper now is the missus, who has no interest in that sort of history, and is pretty much antipathetic to Germany - oddly, because she loves the Heimat TV films (massively recommended BTW). I think she thinks the food would be all beer and sausages (which, tbf, would suit me just fine!) 

Depends!

It's actually quite difficult to find a traditional "Beer Keller" type. They're in Bravaria! There are a couple, we went to one called Maximillian's where the men wear lederhosen and the women wear the dirndl. But no, it's more common to find trendy restaurants with plenty of Italian/French food, if that's more your thing.

It's not hard to get some absolutely brilliant Brott though, their sandwiches turn ours to shame.  Same goes for Beer and sausages.

That said, there are many, many, many cocktail bars.. Very trendy.  I found one, which we didn't get to unfortunately, but it's unmarked.  You have to find it, knock the door and the bouncer will let you in.  Very exclusive, beautiful cocktails etc apparently.

Honestly, there's something for everyone.

And Brandenburg and the road up through the Tiergarten is all Prussian

Likewise, we had a 58 year old with us, who hadn't traveled abroad in 25 years and he absolutely loved it!

[villa4europe]

yeah i did the walk from the victory column to the brandenburg, past the russian war memorial, thats a bit longer than it looks! when i said no prussian im sure that came from going to a couple of museums and there wasnt much of it, there were also a couple of museums that seemed to have 4/5 paragraphs in german but only a couple of sentences translated in to english, im sure topography of terror although good was guilty of that, there was a museum about the history of the city itself which is where i got my opinion about it being very heavy on living under russia in east berlin, there wasnt a museum there that could touch the imperial war museum, checkpoint charlie is probably the best one i went to, it is touristy but its a very good museum

the zoo from what i can remember, i think it was that one, a good 40% of it was shut, the exhibitions were old and the animals were missing, not sure if its had a makeover since or just brought the animals back, i went 10 years ago so it could have changed

went in the reichstag that was good, went and saw the kaiser wilhelm church, charlottenburg, for some reason i wanted to go see spandau

[tonyh29]

50 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

for some reason i wanted to go see Spandau

I saw them at Kempton park the other year 

 

Berlin if you walk about has loads of information signs in front of the buildings telling you what Nazi department was based there during the War  , all quite fascinating but a slow walk

Also allow time for the Museum area and Nefertiti .. which may or may not be a a fake as it now turns out  

[maqroll]

On May 10, 2016 at 04:23, mjmooney said:

The standard received British version that I grew up with, runs something like: 

1. British whip Italians 

2. Rommel rocks up, whips British 

3. Montgomery rocks up, whips Rommel at El Alamein 

4. Americans stroll ashore unopposed, get whipped by Rommel at Kasserine Pass 

5. Americans get their act together, invade Italy 

6. Allies slog their way through Italy until Germans run out of steam 

Always worth digging a bit deeper. 

In the States, we never really learned about the amphibious assault on Morocco, or much of the African campaign in general. Probably because we had no idea what we were doing, and suffered some embarrassing defeats. It's absolutely fascinating though, the politics between The US and UK, and also all the French intrigue. The first army to resist us in Africa was France! Also fascinating is how we eventually got our act together as a fighting force. 

So book one really delves into the headache France and Vichy posed to the Allied cause. It also shines a light on the behind the scenes maneuvering between the Yanks and Brits to work more effectively together. The brass of both armies were close to total dysfunction due to egos and damning command assessment. Cutthroat politics played out on the battlefield. Sick, but totally engrossing, and Atkinson is a master.

 

[sidcow]

Wow I am joining this thread 3 years too late but looking at the opening posts struck a chord with me

When I was in 3rd year seniors we studied the world wars.  Being age 13 it obviously fired my imagination and I threw myself into it big time.  At options time I was anxious to continue with history and my teacher said I was guaranteed O level material. Of course when I get to the O level course it's all the corn laws and open field system.  I was utterly bored to tears and barely squaked through

Irony is now I am so interested in anything historical and would soak up all that stuff. I loved watching Michael Woods story of England and whilst watching it reminded myself of what I thought of as torture in my school history lessons was now fascinating me. Kind of made me chuckle 

Edited May 12, 2016 by sidcow

[Tayls]

On 10 May 2016 at 11:01, lapal_fan said:

Depends!

It's actually quite difficult to find a traditional "Beer Keller" type. They're in Bravaria! There are a couple, we went to one called Maximillian's where the men wear lederhosen and the women wear the dirndl. But no, it's more common to find trendy restaurants with plenty of Italian/French food, if that's more your thing.

It's not hard to get some absolutely brilliant Brott though, their sandwiches turn ours to shame.  Same goes for Beer and sausages.

That said, there are many, many, many cocktail bars.. Very trendy.  I found one, which we didn't get to unfortunately, but it's unmarked.  You have to find it, knock the door and the bouncer will let you in.  Very exclusive, beautiful cocktails etc apparently.

Honestly, there's something for everyone.

And Brandenburg and the road up through the Tiergarten is all Prussian

Likewise, we had a 58 year old with us, who hadn't traveled abroad in 25 years and he absolutely loved it!

I second all the awesome stuff Lapal has mentioned about Berlin. Was there for my stag this April (weirdly also a group of 11 - but all 28 years old) and it was brilliant. Very flat, a bit concrete and lots of graffiti everywhere, but it adds to the charm of the place. We stayed at a generator hostel on the east side of the city and got round easily on the train thingys. Took in Hertha vs Bayern and did a stadium tour - was brilliant. Did some cultural stuff as well, free walking tour with some dude, met at the Brandenbrg gate (the hotel very close by is where MJ hung his baby over the balcony), saw the Reichstag, visited the car park where Hitlers bunker is/was, the Jewish memorial, Berlin Wall, Check-Point Charlie and a couple of chapels. Visited one of the biergartens and spent the day drinking from steins, had a currywurst from there as well which was incredible! 

Awesome city - I'd go back there with just the missus to see it all again. 

Edited May 12, 2016 by Tayls

[mjmooney]

10 hours ago, sidcow said:

Wow I am joining this thread 3 years too late but looking at the opening posts struck a chord with me

When I was in 3rd year seniors we studied the world wars.  Being age 13 it obviously fired my imagination and I threw myself into it big time.  At options time I was anxious to continue with history and my teacher said I was guaranteed O level material. Of course when I get to the O level course it's all the corn laws and open field system.  I was utterly bored to tears and barely squaked through

Irony is now I am so interested in anything historical and would soak up all that stuff. I loved watching Michael Woods story of England and whilst watching it reminded myself of what I thought of as torture in my school history lessons was now fascinating me. Kind of made me chuckle 

Yeah, I'm the same. As a boy it was all the war and adventure stuff that captured my imagination, and I still read a lot on those subjects.I went on to do O-Level, A-Level, and indeed a history degree. 

But I also now find a lot of the 'other' stuff fascinating - social history, history of science and technology, etc. 

It's all good. 

[sidcow]

I see Randy Lerner as his parting shot has re-written history.  Apparently the Holte Hotel is actually a Jacobean building.  Blimey there was me thinking it was Victorian more fool me. Cheers Randy 

[villa4europe]

Built in the Victorian age in a Jacobean style?

Aston hall is a Jacobean style building built in the Jacobean age, has the hotel tried to replicate it's lines and features?

[MakemineVanilla]

Anyone see the BBC programme on the battle of Jutland/Skagerrak?

Thought it was bloody awful myself.

All the stuff they claimed to be proving for the first time has been the orthodoxy for years.

Considering the glaring appeal to modern PC sensibilities at the start of the programme the claim of a victory because it enabled the allies to starve children was egregious.

It hardly amounted to a neutral view of events and seemed to stray into propaganda.

[villakram]

Not sure if this has been posted before, but I find it to be absolutely captivating.

Perhaps, could have been posted in the Brexit thread given the probable demise of UK? Interesting times...

 

[Xann]

There's a visit to VP in there.

 

[maqroll]

The history of Haiti is pure misery. Total genocide of it's original inhabitants, slavery, slave revolt, violent government repression, chronic poverty and now repeat sufferer of natural disasters. I really feel terrible about their plight. 

[maqroll]

On June 27, 2016 at 10:32, villakram said:

Not sure if this has been posted before, but I find it to be absolutely captivating.

Perhaps, could have been posted in the Brexit thread given the probable demise of UK? Interesting times...

 

I can watch these for hours. if this is accurate, the Mongols were in Eastern Europe for along time indeed. I'm guessing that most modern day Eastern Europeans have Asian DNA. Also, look how tribal Germany was in 1630. 

[maqroll]

Vermont is no longer recognizing Columbus Day, instead they are now celebrating Indigenous People's Day. I'm in total agreement with the switch, I hope Mass. and Maine follow suit.