thegiddygambler Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 C'mon I don't even believe you yourself believe what you've just typed there! Given out league standing in that January transfer window and our aim seemingly being close to fruition..+ what want on in the following summer where we spent again...I think we all know that O'Neill could have broke the bank and bought in a £15 million ilk striker had he so wished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegiddygambler Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 So it was all down to the signing of Heskey. Give me strength. It wasnt ALL down to the signing of Heskey, but that January 2009 was the most crucial transfer window for the club. I remember leading up to it on these forums, people were saying if we can just buy a decent striker, we will get 4th ahead of Arsenal. There was talk of Darren Bent, Huntelaar and a Luca Toni, but in the end we got Heskey. If we had sóf signed Bent or someone of the same quality, I think we would of held of Arsenal and got 4th. The gap was only 7 points in the end. The current mess the club in, is not all down to Heskey, but that is a big factor. The most important transfer window in the clubs history, and the club got it horribly wrong. Isnt obvious that by then Lerner wasnt prepared to invest in the likes of Bent etc? Heskey was a terrible buy but you cannot assume that money was available for better. But the money that the club spent after that period suggests the money was there. Surely they could see Heskey was not the answer. Yes clearly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Isnt obvious that by then Lerner wasnt prepared to invest in the likes of Bent etc? Heskey was a terrible buy but you cannot assume that money was available for better. next summer we signed 7 players including Delph and Downing which would have paid Bent fee and wages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Mike Mckenna I think it is fair to say we have got you. There are many reasons why the club is in the mess it is, but the clubs bad decisions in January 2009 is one of the biggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Hiddink wouldn't have come. How do you know that? Was he asked? I only used him as an example anyway. Somebody of that calibre, given the money Randy was about to spend, may have found it very tempting indeed. O'Neill was the best man for the job. No he wasn't. He wasted most of Randy's money on shit players on massive contracts so how can he possibly have been the best man for the job? **** Martin O'Neill. And what was interesting was when MON was appointed at Sunderland the club said 'MON was happy to work within the financial constraints of Sunderland' or words to that effect. You could interpret that in two ways. Either he left Villa because he was not willing to work within constraints latterly set at Villa which is the generally accepted reason he left. Or the perception in the football world was that was the case so it was important to answer that question before it was asked. Or both. My guess is anyone with any sense in the football will see know MON did waste money on average players. Its not like Lerner actually knew anything about the likes of Harewood, Sidwell, Beye, Davies, etc so trusted MON. But as we all know no shit sticks to St Martin, with the like of Pat Murphy constantly licking his arse. Having said that the freedom that Lerner gave MON was little short of negligent and for that he is very very culpable. The trouble is with Lerner his record in sports management speaks for itself. It's terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Those finishes were only achieved by completely overspending on player acquisitions and the associated wages. Spend £20m on two defenders in Davies and Cuellar? Find out that they're not very good? No problem, here's another £12m to replace them with Dunne and Collins. If O'Neill hadn't had silly amounts of money to spend, he'd have got nowhere near the top 6. Correct. That tosser deserves very little loyalty from fans he showed absolutely zero loyalty to. As soon as the golden goose threatened to stop laying eggs for him to do with as he pleased, largely on players not good enough that we're still stuck with or have only recently left, costing us a fortune for little or no return, he scarpered. Now his media mates are covering for his shortcomings and it's being swallowed up again like he's some sort of miracle worker. The truth is had Randy backed a better manager, like a Hiddink for instance, we'd probably have been in the top 4 a few times and far better off. I dont want McLeish anywhere near this club and that goes for Woody Allen too. It really is rubbish to claim "we'd probably have been in the top 4 a few times" had we had someone like Hiddink. O'Neill did have a lot of money to spend but this was against a backdrop of years of under investment by ellis and the fact that other top clubs were still spending big numbers. Even when the money was spent we had one of the smallest quads in the premiership. Which was the reason we couldnt sustain the challenge in O'Neill's final year. IMO 6th was as good as it was going to get given our inability to retain players and without another large tranche of investment.Correct Mike Squad needed changing if we were to compete at the top end, Lerner needed it doing quickly as he couldn't keep up the investment, this meant players who could settle quickly and would come (not your lets take a chance mob) and this cost bucks. For 6th we had the 6th highest wages Truth is Lerner could not or would not sustain it. Getting to 6th was hard but going the extra steps was always going to be harder and cost more. lerner could not compete with that and this basically made MONs job untenable. People say 6th was a massive over achievement as if Lerner could push for anymore now, 6th was as good as it was going to be under Lerner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Correct. That tosser deserves very little loyalty from fans he showed absolutely zero loyalty to. As soon as the golden goose threatened to stop laying eggs for him to do with as he pleased, largely on players not good enough that we're still stuck with or have only recently left, costing us a fortune for little or no return, he scarpered. The comments of someone who believed every word of the generals PR spin. Now his media mates are covering for his shortcomings and it's being swallowed up again like he's some sort of miracle worker. Yes, really Sunderland are losing every match but the papers and tv are tricking everyone into thinking their results have been excellent since he arrived. Why are we still blaming MoN. He has nothing to do with our revenue sources and plans for future revenue. He left behind a squad that just had it's best season in years and had nothing to do with appointing a past it prick and a useless clearing in the woods as his replacements. Saying he should have got top 4 is utterly stupid. Even if we had of achieved it would it have solved all our problems? Would our revenue have increased that much that we could still add to wages in order to compete the following year? With city and spurs continuing to strengthen could we have managed to continue to spend enough to fight their challenge? And if we couldn't manage it the following year what mess would we have been in then? Lerner must love it that there are still fans out there who refuse to blame him for the position we know find ourselves in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philthevillan Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Heskey was never ' the answer', I never remember his arrival being billed as that. He was an addition to the squad in the January transfer window. Managers don't just get given £12m and all of a sudden they can magically sign whoever they like. I am pretty sure there are other strikers O'Neill would have liked but if they weren't available would you have preferred him to sign no-one? I am not a Heskey fan, I never celebrated his arrival and I also think O'Neill should have spent more time scouting abroad. However, blaming our inability to finish a season strongly and break into the top six is ridiculous. Man City have spent £200m getting into the Champions League, Villa spent a lot but never quite enough to guarantee a top four place. We could spend all day arguing over who was a good O'Neill signing and who wasn't. And yes everyone has a point. But the fact is the football was much better to watch (although high tempo more than flamboyant), we finished 6th three seasons in a row, we played in Europe regularly (yes Moscow was another mistake) and we went on cup runs. Personally I miss those days, because compared to the immediate couple of years before and after, we were successful and people thought we were a decent team. No manager is perfect, there are better managers than O'Neill out there. But it has been proven twice now that none of them want the Villa job (especially if they are not given a big budget!) and if they ever came on this forum and saw the criticism they would get for achieving relative success in the league then I can understand why they wouldn't touch the job with a barge pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Why are we still blaming MoN. My theory is that some people find it easier to dwell on the past than to face up to the reality of the present, which is that we have a chairman who has no vision for the club except to disinvest in it, and has appointed two woeful managers in succession (who have actually continued to spend quite a lot of his money for very poor results). Given all that, who would want to talk about the present, even less the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 and if they ever came on this forum and saw the criticism they would get for achieving relative success in the league then I can understand why they wouldn't touch the job with a barge pole. If any manager ever didn't accept a job because of the fans' opinions, he's not the sort of manager you'd want anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrees Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Correct. That tosser deserves very little loyalty from fans he showed absolutely zero loyalty to. As soon as the golden goose threatened to stop laying eggs for him to do with as he pleased, largely on players not good enough that we're still stuck with or have only recently left, costing us a fortune for little or no return, he scarpered. The comments of someone who believed every word of the generals PR spin. Now his media mates are covering for his shortcomings and it's being swallowed up again like he's some sort of miracle worker. Yes, really Sunderland are losing every match but the papers and tv are tricking everyone into thinking their results have been excellent since he arrived. Why are we still blaming MoN. He has nothing to do with our revenue sources and plans for future revenue. He left behind a squad that just had it's best season in years and had nothing to do with appointing a past it prick and a useless clearing in the woods as his replacements. Saying he should have got top 4 is utterly stupid. Even if we had of achieved it would it have solved all our problems? Would our revenue have increased that much that we could still add to wages in order to compete the following year? With city and spurs continuing to strengthen could we have managed to continue to spend enough to fight their challenge? And if we couldn't manage it the following year what mess would we have been in then? Lerner must love it that there are still fans out there who refuse to blame him for the position we know find ourselves in. And no doubt the Messiah loves it that there are people who absolve him of any blame for both the zero return on huge money invested, and its effect on our current situation. Personally I think that Lerner and the Messiah are equally to blame, but Lerner wouldn't have hired the Messiah without the recommendation of Ellis, so let's blame Doug for everything, just like the good old days :winkold: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumstopdogs Posted March 27, 2012 Share Posted March 27, 2012 Lerner still doing nothing. Sell up Lerner you're not welcome at Villa Park anymore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasputin Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Villa season tickets can relate to this guy's feelings.. Please read the posting guidelines about linking to other sites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Why do people get so tetchy over MON? Nobody is saying he's the only reason for our problems. He certainly isn't. However, along with Randy and McLeish he is partly to blame for the position we're in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Villa season tickets can relate to this guy's feelings.. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/frustrated-browns-fan-writes-heartfelt-letter-organization-181125652.html I can fully relate to what he says as I suspect many Villa fans can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philthevillan Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 and if they ever came on this forum and saw the criticism they would get for achieving relative success in the league then I can understand why they wouldn't touch the job with a barge pole. If any manager ever didn't accept a job because of the fans' opinions, he's not the sort of manager you'd want anyway. The point is some people on here are far too quick to blame the manager for everything and if you are taking over a club that is struggling but whose fans believe should be competing for the top six, would you take the job? Especially if you know you won't get the funding to all but guarantee success? Mantis made the comment that O'Neill is partly to blame, fair enough I do agree with that but he wasn't in charge of finances, he didn't have the authority to rubber stamp deals (that only happens in films and computer games) and he was never put in a position where he could sign Luca Toni or Huntelaar, that is fantasy press tittle tattle. We were linked with big name strikers because newspapers need to sell stories, that is all. However what I can't understand is why some people on here just will not accept that things are much worse with out him? The league table doesn't lie. Plus if McLeish had listened to the fans and not taken the job we would have all been extremely happy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philthevillan Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 Correct. That tosser deserves very little loyalty from fans he showed absolutely zero loyalty to. As soon as the golden goose threatened to stop laying eggs for him to do with as he pleased, largely on players not good enough that we're still stuck with or have only recently left, costing us a fortune for little or no return, he scarpered. The comments of someone who believed every word of the generals PR spin. Now his media mates are covering for his shortcomings and it's being swallowed up again like he's some sort of miracle worker. Yes, really Sunderland are losing every match but the papers and tv are tricking everyone into thinking their results have been excellent since he arrived. Why are we still blaming MoN. He has nothing to do with our revenue sources and plans for future revenue. He left behind a squad that just had it's best season in years and had nothing to do with appointing a past it prick and a useless clearing in the woods as his replacements. Saying he should have got top 4 is utterly stupid. Even if we had of achieved it would it have solved all our problems? Would our revenue have increased that much that we could still add to wages in order to compete the following year? With city and spurs continuing to strengthen could we have managed to continue to spend enough to fight their challenge? And if we couldn't manage it the following year what mess would we have been in then? Lerner must love it that there are still fans out there who refuse to blame him for the position we know find ourselves in. And no doubt the Messiah loves it that there are people who absolve him of any blame for both the zero return on huge money invested, and its effect on our current situation. Personally I think that Lerner and the Messiah are equally to blame, but Lerner wouldn't have hired the Messiah without the recommendation of Ellis, so let's blame Doug for everything, just like the good old days :winkold: As one of the few who is willing to defend the fact he gave me some of my favourite memories as a Villa fan, I haven't absolved him of any blame but I know how a football club works behind the scenes and I know that his mistake was telling the board to buy a few duffers. Big deal, he bought some good players too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deeps Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I just don't get rants motives to hire McLiesh. He wasn't wanted by those who count yet he is hired. On silly wages and a long contract. All this after he read his CV? Laughable. I haven't gone to a single game this season, I said I wouldnt until McLiesh is gone. Wrong thing to do maybe as I should support the club but I do just the easier and cheaper way, at home or in the pub. It's the principle that I feel randy slapped every single villa fan in the face last June. Get rid of McLiesh will be rands greatest achievement. Just sayin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I just don't get rants motives to hire McLiesh. He wasn't wanted by those who count yet he is hired. On silly wages and a long contract. All this after he read his CV? Laughable. I haven't gone to a single game this season, I said I wouldnt until McLiesh is gone. Wrong thing to do maybe as I should support the club but I do just the easier and cheaper way, at home or in the pub. It's the principle that I feel randy slapped every single villa fan in the face last June. Get rid of McLiesh will be rands greatest achievement. Just sayin'. I think lerner did look st his cv and very carefully which is why he hired him. if you look what he did with rangers it is very similar to us. when he went to rangers he got rid of about 18 players from the advocaat era and replaced them all with bosman signings or low fee low wage players from around Europe. i expect a repeat at villa in the summer with about 5-6 players leaving with a load of people you have never heard of being bought like international players from Belarus of somewhere random like that. the likes of bent and Ireland will not be here much longer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted March 28, 2012 Share Posted March 28, 2012 I just don't get rants motives to hire McLiesh. He wasn't wanted by those who count yet he is hired. On silly wages and a long contract. All this after he read his CV? Laughable. I haven't gone to a single game this season, I said I wouldnt until McLiesh is gone. Wrong thing to do maybe as I should support the club but I do just the easier and cheaper way, at home or in the pub. It's the principle that I feel randy slapped every single villa fan in the face last June. Get rid of McLiesh will be rands greatest achievement. Just sayin'. I think lerner did look st his cv and very carefully which is why he hired him. if you look what he did with rangers it is very similar to us. when he went to rangers he got rid of about 18 players from the advocaat era and replaced them all with bosman signings or low fee low wage players from around Europe. i expect a repeat at villa in the summer with about 5-6 players leaving with a load of people you have never heard of being bought like international players from Belarus of somewhere random like that. the likes of bent and Ireland will not be here much longer You may be able to do that at a club like Rangers playing the likes of Kilmarnock and Dundee each week. Try and do that in the premiership and we could well be slaughtered. But I admire you for looking into the explanations of why he was hired. There must be a reason...someone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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