U.S. Politics

[Rodders]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

Is that an album title?

Warren Zevon's alt right cousin iirc.

[Awol]

25 minutes ago, Straggler said:

I don't think anyone is ok with a Russian airliner being taken down by a terrorist attack.  This however is not a binary option and the sharing of this information is in no way as simple as you have cast it here.  Sharing security information with other nations in mutual benefit is a decent and sensible thing to do.  However if by sharing the information with the wrong person you compromise the people who gave you the intel in the first place you suffer greater long term problems.  If you are given intel in confidence and promptly share it with someone that the giver has specifically said they do not want to have said intel they will be reluctant to give you any further information.  Also once your Allies know that you cannot be trusted to keep secrets they too are reluctant to share their intel to prevent their own sources being compromised.  The overall effect is that you yourself become worse informed and more vulnerable to terrorist attack yourself.  

So to turn your question around a little bit.  Are you happy that by sharing classified information inappropriately that Trump has made the USA more vulnerable to terrorist attack and the possibility of a civilian airliner being attacked? 

Exactly this, called the third party rule by spooky types.

[villakram]

52 minutes ago, Straggler said:

I don't think anyone is ok with a Russian airliner being taken down by a terrorist attack.  This however is not a binary option and the sharing of this information is in no way as simple as you have cast it here.  Sharing security information with other nations in mutual benefit is a decent and sensible thing to do.  However if by sharing the information with the wrong person you compromise the people who gave you the intel in the first place you suffer greater long term problems.  If you are given intel in confidence and promptly share it with someone that the giver has specifically said they do not want to have said intel they will be reluctant to give you any further information.  Also once your Allies know that you cannot be trusted to keep secrets they too are reluctant to share their intel to prevent their own sources being compromised.  The overall effect is that you yourself become worse informed and more vulnerable to terrorist attack yourself.  

So to turn your question around a little bit.  Are you happy that by sharing classified information inappropriately that Trump has made the USA more vulnerable to terrorist attack and the possibility of a civilian airliner being attacked? 

Exactly. This is a complicated issue. You are suggesting that the Russian government are wrong people? What Islamic terrorist groups are the Russians allied with in Syria vs for example the US and her allies? Just today the US have bombed a Syrian government convoy to protect their groups in Syria. I'd note that it is the US and their agencies who have allied with the "rebels" in Syria, which include those allied to AQ!  

The second paragraph is nonsensical. Are we going to suggest that we think of the children next? 

Finally, I don't remember Trump tweeting about this. It was other people (unidentified as of now) in the US government who decided to leak the entire conversation to the media.

[Straggler]

56 minutes ago, villakram said:

Exactly. This is a complicated issue. You are suggesting that the Russian government are wrong people? What Islamic terrorist groups are the Russians allied with in Syria vs for example the US and her allies? Just today the US have bombed a Syrian government convoy to protect their groups in Syria. I'd note that it is the US and their agencies who have allied with the "rebels" in Syria, which include those allied to AQ!  

The second paragraph is nonsensical. Are we going to suggest that we think of the children next? 

Finally, I don't remember Trump tweeting about this. It was other people (unidentified as of now) in the US government who decided to leak the entire conversation to the media.

And who knew that handling classified information could be so complicated?

[snowychap]

[LondonLax]

2 hours ago, villakram said:

Exactly. This is a complicated issue. You are suggesting that the Russian government are wrong people? What Islamic terrorist groups are the Russians allied with in Syria vs for example the US and her allies? Just today the US have bombed a Syrian government convoy to protect their groups in Syria. I'd note that it is the US and their agencies who have allied with the "rebels" in Syria, which include those allied to AQ!  

The second paragraph is nonsensical. Are we going to suggest that we think of the children next? 

Finally, I don't remember Trump tweeting about this. It was other people (unidentified as of now) in the US government who decided to leak the entire conversation to the media.

Apparently the Germans have reported that they have been asking for this intel for months but the US intelligance agencies did not want to share it with Germany in order to protect their sources. Yet Trump shares it with Russia, a strategic rival in the Middle East. 

You must question his judgement on that surely?

[magnkarl]

7 hours ago, villakram said:

So you would be ok with a Russian civilian airliner being downed in a terrorist attack? One that we could have warned them about but made a conscious decision not to -- "moral"? That conversation would be fun. A leader of a country sharing information with the representative of another country, information with little hard value but potentially huge soft value given the current state of US/Russian relations. If Obama did this, it would have been spun as some sort of higher plane humanitarian act, looking out for the people of our enemies or some such. Or Saint Theresa "the wise" a little closer to home.

What about the Chinese as they're bad too right? Iran, obviously... now given Brexit, does that mean that EU citizens don't matter? Or is it only the ones that the US likes? I really don't get this line of attack, it's so bizarre. I'm not attacking you here as the way this has been driven in the media is quite something to see.

I'm obviously being provocative here, but please try and see the point underneath. Is it not the role of the elected government to engage in policy discussion with other governments. Why does the Trump admin not get to do this?

I've no idea what Israel's feelings have to do with this. They are big boys and have no problem playing rough. Alliances are give and take, especially that one given what the US pays in actual dollars for it.

Nail hit proverbially on the head. Does it really matter if the airline is Delta or Aeroflot if it's being downed by terrorists? So many people have an incredibly biased way at looking at news. Obama sanctioned tapping of Merkel's phone for intel, which was proven several times yet all we can talk about is Trump sharing soft natured intel against Islamic fundamentalism.

On that topic, did Obama get impeached for sanctioning the tapping of another country's leader's phone? Oh wait, no only Trump and republicans can be bad.

Edited May 18, 2017 by magnkarl

[snowychap]

9 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

only Trump and republicans can be bad

Who has said this?

[magnkarl]

4 hours ago, a m ole said:

Do you have a problem with social justice?

No, I have a problem with people who can't form a coherent argument like a grown up, who start name calling and who drops words like "check your privilege" "occupy!!" "fascist" "MRA" etc. to anyone who doesn't have the same view as themselves. The world isn't made of love circles and everyone holding hands to the Soviet National Anthem, the sooner people realise that and don't backtrack to squealing some insult and trying to silence people when they try to hold a serious debate the "SJW's" would get their cause a whole lot further.

[a m ole]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

No, I have a problem with people who can't form a coherent argument like a grown up, who start name calling and who drops words like "check your privilege" "occupy!!" "fascist" "MRA" etc. to anyone who doesn't have the same view as themselves. The world isn't made of love circles and everyone holding hands to the Soviet National Anthem, the sooner people realise that and don't backtrack to squealing some insult and trying to silence people when they try to hold a serious debate the "SJW's" would get their cause a whole lot further.

Except I contrasted two quotes of yours barely a paragraph apart showing stunning hypocrisy and you had no answer to it.

Who's 'squealing'?

[magnkarl]

Just now, a m ole said:

Except I contrasted two quotes of yours barely a paragraph apart showing stunning hypocrisy and you had no answer to it.

Who's 'squealing'?

Calling someone MRA for having conflicting views to you is squealing - just over a keyboard.

[a m ole]

6 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Calling someone MRA for having conflicting views to you is squealing - just over a keyboard.

It was a joke based on your previous posts. Looks like you took the bait.

Anyway, this is the US politics thread.

[magnkarl]

8 minutes ago, a m ole said:

It was a joke based on your previous posts. Looks like you took the bait.

Anyway, this is the US politics thread.

Ah, the old "I got called out, must deflect by saying it was a joke so as not to lose face"-trick. The next time you attack someone based on their views I suggest you don't try to box them into your "MRA" box.

In any case I just saw that clip of Melissa McCarthy parodying Sean Spicer driving through New York on his podium looking for Donald. Epic.

[snowychap]

24 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I have a problem with people who can't form a coherent argument

Have you read some of your own posts?

[a m ole]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

Ah, the old "I got called out, must deflect by saying it was a joke so as not to lose face"-trick. The next time you attack someone based on their views I suggest you don't try to box them into your "MRA" box.

In any case I just saw that clip of Melissa McCarthy parodying Sean Spicer driving through New York on his podium looking for Donald. Epic.

hahahahaha.

[villakram]

2 hours ago, LondonLax said:

Apparently the Germans have reported that they have been asking for this intel for months but the US intelligance agencies did not want to share it with Germany in order to protect their sources. Yet Trump shares it with Russia, a strategic rival in the Middle East. 

You must question his judgement on that surely?

Absolutely, but certain amounts of it have been shared. If this was really important would Trump even have known about it, e.g, Obama supposedly didn't get read in on the extent of the NSA programs until 2010 (this is mindblowing)! My issue is with the associating a valid executive decision with Trump, Trump, TRUMP. There are arguments against and for what he did. Without knowing the greater geo-strategic goals of this administration, resorting to the Trump is a moron meme is stunningly simplistic. And the lack of morals displayed in some of the commentary was interesting, but given the wholesale approval of his missile strike (by the political class not us lot), well...

And more importantly this all diverts attention from the real concrete things he and his admin are doing, e.g., the FCC today laid the groundwork for a tolled internet, and the WH/whomever is responsible is just about to submit the notification to re-negotiate NAFTA. His tax plan also was just opened up for discussion in the relevant congressional committee. This is trickle down that would make your eyes bleed. The main discussion is how to score it, straight-up/dynamically (regular or super). These are the truly important things.  

We need to realize who owns the media and what their agenda is. Anyway, look over there, a cute bunny-wabbit. \end{rant}

Edited May 18, 2017 by villakram

[Keyblade]

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

Nail hit proverbially on the head. Does it really matter if the airline is Delta or Aeroflot if it's being downed by terrorists? So many people have an incredibly biased way at looking at news. Obama sanctioned tapping of Merkel's phone for intel, which was proven several times yet all we can talk about is Trump sharing soft natured intel against Islamic fundamentalism.

On that topic, did Obama get impeached for sanctioning the tapping of another country's leader's phone? Oh wait, no only Trump and republicans can be bad.

Obama's on a beach somewhere right now, why are you even talking about him. It's Trump who's president right now, so he's the one in the hot seat. This b-but Obama! B-but Hillary thing needs to stop.

[Straggler]

15 hours ago, snowychap said:

 Confession time.  It has taken me a full 15 hours to get this.  I'm a little embarrassed as I even googled the pic at the time of posting, saw that he was the witch finder general and still didn't put it together.  I'm putting it down to tiredness.

[magnkarl]

16 hours ago, Keyblade said:

Obama's on a beach somewhere right now, why are you even talking about him. It's Trump who's president right now, so he's the one in the hot seat. This b-but Obama! B-but Hillary thing needs to stop.

Okay, so the standard of a president is always to be measured in the president that is in power. Gotcha. Revisionism is for losers right? Let's all just ignore things when they are done by people we like and have a "who can shout the loudest" contest about people we don't like. All American presidents cross the line, including Obama, it's just that 48% of the American population is vehemently against Trump's abrasive way of being. What this election has shown is that a hell of a lot of people don't really care about democratic processes in America and threw their toys out of the pram when their candidate didn't win the election. 

[LondonLax]

33 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Okay, so the standard of a president is always to be measured in the president that is in power. Gotcha. Revisionism is for losers right? Let's all just ignore things when they are done by people we like and have a "who can shout the loudest" contest about people we don't like. All American presidents cross the line, including Obama, it's just that 48% of the American population is vehemently against Trump's abrasive way of being. What this election has shown is that a hell of a lot of people don't really care about democratic processes in America and threw their toys out of the pram when their candidate didn't win the election. 

I don't think you are very good at understanding other people.