U.S. Politics

[StefanAVFC]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

Not really, I get that everyone's upset about Trump, but honestly a lot of what you people are complaining about happened in pretty much every presidential period ever.

Horribly misguided whataboutism.

No other modern president has been involved in anywhere near the multitude of scandals, from campaign to presidency, that Trump has. With the exception of Nixon (for obvious reasons)

Edited May 18, 2017 by StefanAVFC

[Straggler]

Hang on a minute, I'll just do a quick trawl of this thread to find the posts from the anti Trump posters who are looking forwards to Pence getting into the hot seat.

 

 

Oh that's right there have been the square route of bugger all people looking forward with any relish to the idea or Pence being in charge who also want Trump out. 

However if the argument is lets keep Trump because Pence could be worse then shall we take a look at the implications of that?  It is up there with having two bullets fired at you and not bothering to dodge the first because the second might hit you.

For clarity, there is a platform in the states that I am behind, it is on the following link:

https://justicedemocrats.com/Platform

I am not in support of the Republicans nor am I in support of the Democrats, both are mired in corruption and money.  However Trump is so utterly incompetent that I will celebrate everything that prevents him from carrying out his unique brand of FUBAR (I was going to say policies here, but I don't think he really has any). When he is done it is on to Pence and at the same time the attempted reform of the Democrat party and indeed the political system.  Trump is an unacceptable risk as President, even the Republican party is beginning to recognise this by appointing a special prosecutor and one Republican Congressman actually calling for an impeachment on the House floor.  Trump has managed to talk himself into this predicament in just 4 months!  Most Presidents are still in the honeymoon period at this stage and Trump has his own historically loyal party openly calling for his removal.  It is unprecedented.  Only William Henry Harrison had a shorter honeymoon period as President, but he has the legitimate excuse of being dead 31 days into his term.

It boggles my mind some of the stuff I read on here.

[StefanAVFC]

By the way, Pence is just as screwed if Trump goes down.

He feigned ignorance about Flynn, when he was told by by Cummings and the DoJ about Flynn's work as a foreign agent, before the inauguration.

Why was Flynn fired? Lying to Pence. He didn't lie to Pence. Pence knew.

So then President Ryan. But last night, it comes out that Ryan had discussions with the majority leader about Putin paying Trump 

President Hatch anyone?

[MakemineVanilla]

42 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Horribly misguided whataboutism.

No other modern president has been involved in anywhere near the multitude of scandals, from campaign to presidency, that Trump has. With the exception of Nixon (for obvious reasons)

So what would your top ten scandals be, so we can compare?

[choffer]

As has been pointed out on twitter today, it's amazing to think that Clinton was impeached for lying about a BJ

[MakemineVanilla]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

One of the more condescending paragraphs on the forum there I think.

I was wrong, the thing about the hair wasn't true. 

[magnkarl]

50 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Horribly misguided whataboutism.

No other modern president has been involved in anywhere near the multitude of scandals, from campaign to presidency, that Trump has. With the exception of Nixon (for obvious reasons)

Again, look at your own sentence for misguided whataboutism. We live in an age of social media where everything gets blown out of proportion. Trump didn't hold Angela's hand - let's all whine about it on Twatter. Trump held May's hand = Trump hates Germany.

I raise your "long", largely unproven, list of Trump scandals with these scandals, which in my book are WAY worse than the things that Trump have done so far. 

1) The Teapot Dome (Harding)

2) Iran Contra (Reagan)

3) Watergate

4) Bush-Blair's Alleged WMD's to go to war with Iraq.

5) Lewinski

Trump's Russia problem might go in somewhere between 3-4 on my list - while everyone seems so content at putting Trump in all spots before anything is even proven. Sure he's a borderline illiterate buffoon who inherited all his wealth from his father - but I challenge you to find me any Conservative president who didn't get to where they were on the back of someone else's achievements. I suggest a large dose of realism and less Huffington Post, Buzzfeed, New York Compost and Daily Mirror. Both parties in America are corrupt, lobbied extensively, extremely similar in policy approach and offer no real opposition when the other is in power.

 

Edited May 18, 2017 by magnkarl

[MakemineVanilla]

1 minute ago, choffer said:

As has been pointed out on twitter today, it's amazing to think that Clinton was impeached for lying about a BJ

I seem to remember that John Profumo wasn't sacked for bonking prostitutes but for lying to Parliament.

[StefanAVFC]

3 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I suggest a large dose of realism and less Huffington Post, Buzzfeed, New York Compost and Daily Mirror. Both parties in America are corrupt, lobbied extensively, extremely similar in policy approach and offer no real opposition when the other is in power.

 

This is, again, insanely patronising. Who are you to decide that your views are realistic and mine are solely hyperbolic from reading certain sources?

3 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

1) The Teapot Dome (Harding)

2) Iran Contra (Reagan)

3) Watergate

4) Bush-Blair's Alleged WMD's to go to war with Iraq.

5) Lewinski

Trump's Russia problem might go in somewhere between 3-4 on my list - 

 

A presidential candidate colluding with an enemy power to win an election would be the biggest political scandal in American history. 

11 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

So what would your top ten scandals be, so we can compare?

On it.

[magnkarl]

8 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

This is, again, insanely patronising. Who are you to decide that your views are realistic and mine are solely hyperbolic from reading certain sources?

A presidential candidate colluding with an enemy power to win an election would be the biggest political scandal in American history. 

On it.

We're all waiting, make sure to find an article which is really emotionally charged and written by some guy who studies Gender at Caltech. The whole point is that most of the bad feels people have towards this president should have been there against 4/5 of the last American presidents too. It's just that this president rubs certain elements of our society the wrong way by having the oral proficiency of a 2 year old. Where were all these people when Clinton was getting BJ's in his wardrobe or Bush lied to us all on TV and dragged our country to war?

Also, remember to have proof for all your claims. Your whole Russia argument isn't even proven yet so if that is on the top of your list we all look forward to seeing what you can dig up that is proven, not hinted at by Democratic press titles.

Edited May 18, 2017 by magnkarl

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, magnkarl said:

We're all waiting, make sure to find an article which is really emotionally charged and written by some guy who studies Gender at Caltech. 

Again.

2 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

The whole point is that most of the bad feels people have towards this president should have been there against 4/5 of the last American presidents too.

I mean, you must have been asleep for the last 8 years. The level of scandal the right created about Obama was as dastardly as wearing a tan suit or eating dijon mustard. 

[magnkarl]

Just now, StefanAVFC said:

Again.

I mean, you must have been asleep for the last 8 years. The level of scandal the right created about Obama was as dastardly as wearing a tan suit or eating dijon mustard. 

I said 4/5 presidents. Not 5/5. I have no qualms with Obama.

[MakemineVanilla]

21 Clinton scandals

http://tinyurl.com/p3nnltd

1. Monica Lewinsky: Led to only the second president in American history to be impeached.
2. Benghazi: Four Americans killed, an entire system of weak diplomatic security uncloaked, and the credibility of a president and his secretary of state damaged.
3. Asia fundraising scandal: More than four dozen convicted in a scandal that made the Lincoln bedroom, White House donor coffees and Buddhist monks infamous.
4. Hillary’s private emails: Hundreds of national secrets already leaked through private email and the specter of a criminal probe looming large.
5. Whitewater: A large S&L failed and several people went to prison.
6. Travelgate: The firing of the career travel office was the very first crony capitalism scandal of the Clinton era.
7. Humagate: An aide’s sweetheart job arrangement.
8. Pardongate: The first time donations were ever connected as possible motives for presidential pardons.
9. Foundation favors: Revealing evidence that the Clinton Foundation was a pay-to-play back door to the State Department, and an open checkbook for foreigners to curry favor.
10. Mysterious files: The disappearance and re-discovery of Hillary’s Rose Law Firm records.
11. Filegate: The Clinton use of FBI files to dig for dirt on their enemies.
12. Hubble trouble: The resignation and imprisonment of Hillary law partner Web Hubbell.
13. The Waco tragedy: One of the most lethal exercises of police power in American history.
14. The Clinton’s Swedish slush fund: $26 million collected overseas with little accountability and lots of questions about whether contributors got a pass on Iran sanctions.
15. Troopergate: From the good old days, did Arkansas state troopers facilitate Bill Clinton’s philandering?
16. Gennifer Flowers: The tale that catapulted a supermarket tabloid into the big time.
17. Bill’s Golden Tongue: His and her speech fees shocked the American public.
18. Boeing Bucks: Boeing contributed big-time to Bill; Hillary helped the company obtain a profitable Russian contract.
19. Larry Lawrence: How did a fat cat donor get buried in Arlington National Cemetery without war experience?
20. The cattle futures: Hillary as commodity trader extraordinaire.
21. Chinagate: Nuclear secrets go to China on her husband’s watch.

Edited May 18, 2017 by MakemineVanilla

[Straggler]

4 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Again, look at your own sentence for misguided whataboutism. We live in an age of social media where everything gets blown out of proportion. Trump didn't hold Angela's hand - let's all whine about it on Twatter. Trump held May's hand = Trump hates Germany.

I raise your "long", largely unproven, list of Trump scandals with these scandals, which in my book are WAY worse than the things that Trump have done so far. 

1) The Teapot Dome (Harding)

2) Iran Contra (Reagan)

3) Watergate

4) Bush-Blair's Alleged WMD's to go to war with Iraq.

5) Lewinski

Trump's Russia problem might go in somewhere between 3-4 on my list - while everyone seems so content at putting Trump in all spots before anything is even proven. Sure he's a borderline illiterate buffoon who inherited all his wealth from his father - but I challenge you to find me any Conservative president who didn't get to where they were on the back of someone else's achievements. I suggest a large dose of realism and less Huffington Post, Buzzfeed, New York Compost and Daily Mirror. Both parties in America are corrupt, lobbied extensively, extremely similar in policy approach and offer no real opposition when the other is in power.

 

Personally I'd have Bush-Blair at the top of that list, the amount of people that died for that lie is unforgivable.

Where Trump comes in depends what comes out of "Trump's Russia problem".  What they are investigating is is colluding with Russia to influence the general election.  That is also known as treason.  That sticks Trump right in at number one in my list if proven.  The money trail around the treasonous activity is coincidentally enough all about the trade sanctions with Russia preventing a staggeringly huge oil deal that rather puts the teapot dome in the shade.  The obstructing of justice Trump has pretty much done in public via Twitter and out of his own mouth.  The level of incompetence that he has brought to his obstruction of justice does put him behind Nixon in that regard, but still on the list.  These are not small things.  Treason, corruption, obstruction of justice.  They deserve the investigation they are getting and they are in no way normal.

I do also wonder if you missed the mass protests about the war in Iraq, the multiple times people called for Blair and Bush to be prosecuted for war crimes?  Clinton was impeached.  The outrage that you claim was not there was clearly there.  All those people were in the streets protesting (over the war, the Clinton BJ thing really is small potatoes in comparison)

[magnkarl]

2 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

21 Clinton scandals

http://tinyurl.com/p3nnltd

1. Monica Lewinsky: Led to only the second president in American history to be impeached.
2. Benghazi: Four Americans killed, an entire system of weak diplomatic security uncloaked, and the credibility of a president and his secretary of state damaged.
3. Asia fundraising scandal: More than four dozen convicted in a scandal that made the Lincoln bedroom, White House donor coffees and Buddhist monks infamous.
PHOTOS: The most consequential Clinton scandals — in order
4. Hillary’s private emails: Hundreds of national secrets already leaked through private email and the specter of a criminal probe looming large.
5. Whitewater: A large S&L failed and several people went to prison.
6. Travelgate: The firing of the career travel office was the very first crony capitalism scandal of the Clinton era.
7. Humagate: An aide’s sweetheart job arrangement.
8. Pardongate: The first time donations were ever connected as possible motives for presidential pardons.
9. Foundation favors: Revealing evidence that the Clinton Foundation was a pay-to-play back door to the State Department, and an open checkbook for foreigners to curry favor.
10. Mysterious files: The disappearance and re-discovery of Hillary’s Rose Law Firm records.
11. Filegate: The Clinton use of FBI files to dig for dirt on their enemies.
12. Hubble trouble: The resignation and imprisonment of Hillary law partner Web Hubbell.
13. The Waco tragedy: One of the most lethal exercises of police power in American history.
14. The Clinton’s Swedish slush fund: $26 million collected overseas with little accountability and lots of questions about whether contributors got a pass on Iran sanctions.
15. Troopergate: From the good old days, did Arkansas state troopers facilitate Bill Clinton’s philandering?
16. Gennifer Flowers: The tale that catapulted a supermarket tabloid into the big time.
17. Bill’s Golden Tongue: His and her speech fees shocked the American public.
18. Boeing Bucks: Boeing contributed big-time to Bill; Hillary helped the company obtain a profitable Russian contract.
19. Larry Lawrence: How did a fat cat donor get buried in Arlington National Cemetery without war experience?
20. The cattle futures: Hillary as commodity trader extraordinaire.
21. Chinagate: Nuclear secrets go to China on her husband’s watch.

But..but.. Grab her by the !$!"£"!. Hillary and Bill are amongst the biggest cronies ever to be in the white house. How she could be secretary of state after her extremely dotted past is beyond me.

[Straggler]

3 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

21 Clinton scandals

http://tinyurl.com/p3nnltd

1. Monica Lewinsky: Led to only the second president in American history to be impeached.
2. Benghazi: Four Americans killed, an entire system of weak diplomatic security uncloaked, and the credibility of a president and his secretary of state damaged.
3. Asia fundraising scandal: More than four dozen convicted in a scandal that made the Lincoln bedroom, White House donor coffees and Buddhist monks infamous.
4. Hillary’s private emails: Hundreds of national secrets already leaked through private email and the specter of a criminal probe looming large.
5. Whitewater: A large S&L failed and several people went to prison.
6. Travelgate: The firing of the career travel office was the very first crony capitalism scandal of the Clinton era.
7. Humagate: An aide’s sweetheart job arrangement.
8. Pardongate: The first time donations were ever connected as possible motives for presidential pardons.
9. Foundation favors: Revealing evidence that the Clinton Foundation was a pay-to-play back door to the State Department, and an open checkbook for foreigners to curry favor.
10. Mysterious files: The disappearance and re-discovery of Hillary’s Rose Law Firm records.
11. Filegate: The Clinton use of FBI files to dig for dirt on their enemies.
12. Hubble trouble: The resignation and imprisonment of Hillary law partner Web Hubbell.
13. The Waco tragedy: One of the most lethal exercises of police power in American history.
14. The Clinton’s Swedish slush fund: $26 million collected overseas with little accountability and lots of questions about whether contributors got a pass on Iran sanctions.
15. Troopergate: From the good old days, did Arkansas state troopers facilitate Bill Clinton’s philandering?
16. Gennifer Flowers: The tale that catapulted a supermarket tabloid into the big time.
17. Bill’s Golden Tongue: His and her speech fees shocked the American public.
18. Boeing Bucks: Boeing contributed big-time to Bill; Hillary helped the company obtain a profitable Russian contract.
19. Larry Lawrence: How did a fat cat donor get buried in Arlington National Cemetery without war experience?
20. The cattle futures: Hillary as commodity trader extraordinaire.
21. Chinagate: Nuclear secrets go to China on her husband’s watch.

So what?

Clinton did some bad things.  That is bad.  Trump is doing some bad things that is also bad.

one bad thing does not cancel out or excuse the other it just adds up to two bad things.

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, Straggler said:

Personally I'd have Bush-Blair at the top of that list, the amount of people that died for that lie is unforgivable.

Where Trump comes in depends what comes out of "Trump's Russia problem".  What they are investigating is is colluding with Russia to influence the general election.  That is also known as treason.  That sticks Trump right in at number one in my list if proven.  The money trail around the treasonous activity is coincidentally enough all about the trade sanctions with Russia preventing a staggeringly huge oil deal that rather puts the teapot dome in the shade.  The obstructing of justice Trump has pretty much done in public via Twitter and out of his own mouth.  The level of incompetence that he has brought to his obstruction of justice does put him behind Nixon in that regard, but still on the list.  These are not small things.  Treason, corruption, obstruction of justice.  They deserve the investigation they are getting and they are in no way normal.

I do also wonder if you missed the mass protests about the war in Iraq, the multiple times people called for Blair and Bush to be prosecuted for war crimes?  Clinton was impeached.  The outrage that you claim was not there was clearly there.  All those people were in the streets protesting (over the war, the Clinton BJ thing really is small potatoes in comparison)

Now this is a fair argument. I do agree on most of the sentiments of this post however until things are proven I will not be outraged over it. We're not a totalitarian society where we sentence first and then prove. There have been many presidents who have had cases against them where things have been dismissed as political games rather than being truthful.

[StefanAVFC]

Whataboutism is the only thing left to deflect with, it seems.

And why is this list for both Bill and Hillary?

Hillary isn't president and never was.

[magnkarl]

4 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

Whataboutism is the only thing left to deflect with, it seems.

And why is this list for both Bill and Hillary?

Hillary isn't president and never was.

We're still waiting on that proof that you're digging up about Trump's "long" list of scandals. MakemineVanilla actually gave you a whole list of proven illicit behavior by someone, while most of what you are talking about is not yet proven. The only thing that is real is the outrage about things Trump might have done. 

[StefanAVFC]

Currently writing it

Quote

The only thing that is real is the outrage about things Trump might have done. 

That is complete and utter bollocks.

Edited May 18, 2017 by StefanAVFC