Greece

[mjmooney]

Bedford Falls becomes Potterville.

[Meath_Villan]

 

 

 

Who will blink first !!!

[villa89]

Looks like the clueless socialists are sending their country down the bankruptcy route. It didn't work out so well for Argentina and it'll be even worse for Greece.

 

In times of austerity you really can't have a left wing government as they just can't make the required tough decisions. In good times you need some left wing influence to ensure the poorest in society don't get left behind and that there isn't a hoarding of wealth at the top. In times of recession you need a capitalist government to promote growth and cut welfare. The problem is that people vote for the right in the good times and the left in the bad times.

[wazzap24]

I'm not so sure the socialists are that clueless to be honest.

Being part of the EU isn't working for them and won't work for them for a very long time (if ever).

If I lived there, I'd would see a break away and a return to being in control of the economy as a gamble worth taking.

The EU is scared and is trying to use fear to retain control. It worked for the Tories over here, but the Greeks look like they've got a bit of spunk left in them and are up for the scrap. Good on em.

[wazzap24]

It's a very difficult situation. Principle will get you poverty.

Already in it and will get worse if they stay. I'll try and find the article, but if they take the EU deal, they are looking at austerity for nigh on 50 years.

They can't pay back the debt quick enough under a stagnant, austerity driven, economy. They need to hit a surplus of 7.2% or something like that for the next 10-15 years for a start and the only country that has ever maintained a surplus like that, for that long is Norway and they certainly didn't do it in the circumstances Greece are in.

What they are being asked to do is impossible and grossly unfair on the general population. They may as well take the gamble.

Austerity on its own doesn't work. The quicker everyone starts waking up to it, the better.

Edited June 29, 2015 by wazzap24

[villa89]

I'm not so sure the socialists are that clueless to be honest.

Being part of the EU isn't working for them and won't work for them for a very long time (if ever).

 

They are more clueless than that. Being in the EU has worked brilliantly for Greece as they have much higher living standards than they would have if they were on their own and they get a lot of money from the EU structural funds. Essentially they don't really have a functioning economy, their welfare system is a joke, the level of corruption and tax evasion is huge and they have 26% unemployment despite having a huge army of civil servants.

 

I just saw that they have less than €2b in foreign reserves, Argentina had €30b and Venezula €19b. They are screwed unless the EU saves them.

[islingtonclaret]

 

It's a very difficult situation. Principle will get you poverty.

Austerity on its own doesn't work. The quicker everyone starts waking up to it, the better.

 

 

It's a rock and a hard place though, isn't it? Austerity may not work, but there's nothing to counter it because there's no money, because the bailouts aren't enough. 

[snowychap]

To be blaming the collapse of the Greek economy over the last few years and their current plight solely on their current government (and 'socialists' in general) whilst lauding the magic hand of 'the right' and austerity seems like the dictionary definition of confirmation bias.

[chrisp65]

 

right wing coup and military dictatorship 1964 - 1974 says hi!

 

things were so much better when the colonels told people what time to clear the streets of an evening

[villa89]

To be blaming the collapse of the Greek economy over the last few years and their current plight solely on their current government (and 'socialists' in general) whilst lauding the magic hand of 'the right' and austerity seems like the dictionary definition of confirmation bias.

 

I am not doing that, if that post referred to mine, I am just pointing out what a total mess they are in and how their current government have managed to make it much, much worse. Their economy collapsed because they joined the Euro, just like Ireland and Portugal. They got a currency and interest rates that suited Germany not one that suited them. If they had stayed with the drachma they wouldn't have been able to borrow all the money that funded the splurge in the first place and/or their currency could have been devalued a long time ago.

Edited June 29, 2015 by villa89

[snowychap]

Much, much worse than what? Than if they had a government that compliantly continued to do just what the troika have been forcing them to do since the beginning of their bailout?

[mockingbird_franklin]

It's the left, it's the right, it's the people etc, maybe it's time to look for a root cause, the banking system and the monetary policy that it controls and the monopoly it enjoys to the detriment to the vast majority.

[El Zen]

I find myself quietly rooting for Mr. Tsipras. However this turns out, at least he didn't just drop his trousers and bend down for The Man. Better to go down fighting than to be Germany's bitch for 50 years.

[OutByEaster?]

Greece is banks vs. people, and even though the banks are massive favourites to win this one, we really should be backing the Greeks. 

 

When banks get greedy in their transfer of public money into corporate hands, on occasion they overreach and milk a nation too hard, that's what they've done here; their solution is to milk them harder.

 

When banks get into trouble, we take billions of pounds and pump them into the banks in order to keep them solvent. When countries get into trouble, the banks take away money for public services, hospitals, schools, transport, infrastructure and anything else that doesn't come directly out of corporate hands - seems like a fair deal doesn't it?

[maqroll]

They'd do well to get a handle on rampant tax evasion and an over reliance on social welfare and do nothing patronage careers in government.

 

The root cause of this crisis is not only external forces.

[mockingbird_franklin]

They'd do well to get a handle on rampant tax evasion and an over reliance on social welfare and do nothing patronage careers in government.

 

The root cause of this crisis is not only external forces.

Is that the need for heavy taxation, extended welfare beyond the truly needy? created as a result of the flawed privately controlled monetary system, from use of debt based money underwritten by the property of real living people? who then have it loaned with interest back to them, in a system that has financial failure built in at it's very core.

Edited June 29, 2015 by mockingbird_franklin

[NoelVilla]

Well they lied to join that controlled monetary system. Very easy to blame the big bad banks. The greeks have a huge blame in this but I may agree that they probably don't deserve what is coming.

[mockingbird_franklin]

Looks like the clueless socialists are sending their country down the bankruptcy route. It didn't work out so well for Argentina and it'll be even worse for Greece.

 

In times of austerity you really can't have a left wing government as they just can't make the required tough decisions. In good times you need some left wing influence to ensure the poorest in society don't get left behind and that there isn't a hoarding of wealth at the top. In times of recession you need a capitalist government to promote growth and cut welfare. The problem is that people vote for the right in the good times and the left in the bad times.

Hi Gideon, does David know you're on here, or is he busy on the equivalent West Ham Utd fans forum

[mockingbird_franklin]

Well they lied to join that controlled monetary system. Very easy to blame the big bad banks. The greeks have a huge blame in this but I may agree that they probably don't deserve what is coming.

It is easy, you are right there, but thats because they are responsible for a large portion of the blame for an awful lot of financial woes throughout history, both on a large and small scale, who are these greeks you talk about? are you suggesting the whole greek population are responsible for any supposed lies about suitability of the Greek economy joining the Euro and as such all should be punished and impoverished? By all means hold to account those men and women acting as politicians and agents of the legal entity called the Greek state, why persecute those human beings who inhabit a piece of the earth commonly and historically called Greece?

[NoelVilla]

Greek politicians voted to govern by the greek people. That is how our western democracies work. Should I exclude the greeks who never voted? Maybe I should to be absolutely correct but that seems to much to write. But I do it now; all young greek people and those who never voted excluded in what I wrote before.