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Greece


maqroll

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It's a very difficult situation. Principle will get you poverty.

Austerity on its own doesn't work.

Austerity is working perfectly as it is supposed to do, the error is believing it's meant to balance the books and pay off debt.

Booooooooom

Yet this is what some of the leading politicians across Europe believe (or more importantly, want the plebs to believe)

Can you give Georgie boy a call and let him know?

Might go to voicemail as he's busy up a ladder, 'fixing the roof' whilst the sun shines, but please be sure to leave a message - it really is one he needs to hear.

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Greece is banks vs. people,

Banks V's the people is a war that has been fought throughout the centuries, unfortunately for the people, banks being dead fictions, legal entitles, or just simply something written on a piece of paper are difficult to kill off forever in the way people can be, so this war is one that has to be fought again and again even when the people win.

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Looks like Tsipras has decided he can't win the strategy he wants so is backing down.

He gambled on being able to threaten the future of the Euro with the Grexit on the table forcing the hand of the rest of Europe. Instead they called his bluff (and arguably some Euro ministers decided they were very happy to see the back of Greece in the long run) and he's looking like he's had come back cap in hand and tail between his legs.

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yes it does look like Greece blinked first at the moment

 

Tsipras trying to restart talks and Germany putting him on divert to voicemail until after the referendum, which by all accounts fails international standards on how to hold a referendum.

 

If ze Germans have been watching the news, they can see that a 'win' for Tsipras on Sunday is far from certain, so potentially he has to come back to the table on Monday having lost the backing of the people. Which potentially, could see him stand down I guess, and give the first set of suits another turn at pretending to run the country.

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I don't believe that the European leaders want Greece out of the Euro - once one leaves it weakens the whole concept - but they will certainly be prepared to politics and threaten it if it means they get rid of Tsipras and the rest of his party. 

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I don't believe that the European leaders want Greece out of the Euro - once one leaves it weakens the whole concept - but they will certainly be prepared to politics and threaten it if it means they get rid of Tsipras and the rest of his party. 

 

I think they didn't want Greece to leave initially, but I suspect they care less now. I do agree that their number one overriding objective is ensuring that Tsipras has resigned and called an election as soon as possible. 

Edited by HanoiVillan
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I don't believe that the European leaders want Greece out of the Euro - once one leaves it weakens the whole concept - but they will certainly be prepared to politics and threaten it if it means they get rid of Tsipras and the rest of his party. 

 

I think they didn't want Greece to leave initially, but I suspect they care less now. I do agree that their number one overriding objective is ensuring that Tsipras has resigned and called an election as soon as possible. 

 

 

My guess would be that like all other entities which know they have all the power they won't take 'no' for an answer, they will just keep coming back until they agree.

 

Which is what they did with Ireland after their referendum gave the 'wrong' result.

 

What they really want is not to only get their money back but to impose their one-size-fits-all neo-liberal conditions on the Greeks, which will allow big capital to buy state-owned Greek assets (ferries, gas, electricity, TV).

 

Edit: PSP: Like after WW2 when rather than having communists run the country, Churchill et al gave the nod to the Greek generals to shoot people in the streets. 

Edited by MakemineVanilla
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I don't believe that the European leaders want Greece out of the Euro - once one leaves it weakens the whole concept - but they will certainly be prepared to politics and threaten it if it means they get rid of Tsipras and the rest of his party. 

Agree 100%

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Looks like Tsipras has decided he can't win the strategy he wants so is backing down.

He gambled on being able to threaten the future of the Euro with the Grexit on the table forcing the hand of the rest of Europe. Instead they called his bluff (and arguably some Euro ministers decided they were very happy to see the back of Greece in the long run) and he's looking like he's had come back cap in hand and tail between his legs.

 

I wouldn't trust how anything "looks". Tsipras's party has a lot of proper left-wing support. The bankers in charge of negotiations regard people like him as the enemy before he even opens his mouth. Expect a lot of anti-Tsipras spin in the media.

 

Nobody knows all of the following things:

- What the EU's real motives are and what was discussed at their meetings

- What the Syriza government's mandate from its member parties is, and what was discussed at its meetings

- What was offered in the negotiations, and what was refused.

 

I mean I'm almost prepared to believe the anti-Tsipras spin, it's just that we have no evidence to go on and probably never will have. That won't stop the Euro powers from spinning away, though.

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Setting aside the political parties of this will be the humanitarian crisis about to happen when food shortages medicine shortages start happening. As European brothers we should be helping the people out big style with immediate aid

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Setting aside the political parties of this will be the humanitarian crisis about to happen when food shortages medicine shortages start happening. As European brothers we should be helping the people out big style with immediate aid

 

Someone has actually started a crowd-funding thing.

 

If every person in the EC paid 3 euros Greece could meet their immediate needs and 300 euros would pay off their debts completely. 

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Setting aside the political parties of this will be the humanitarian crisis about to happen when food shortages medicine shortages start happening. As European brothers we should be helping the people out big style with immediate aid

 

Someone has actually started a crowd-funding thing.

 

If every person in the EC paid 3 euros Greece could meet their immediate needs and 300 euros would pay off their debts completely. 

 

unfortunately those that can most afford 300 Euros are those least likely to give 3 Euros never mind 300 Euros

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Setting aside the political parties of this will be the humanitarian crisis about to happen when food shortages medicine shortages start happening. As European brothers we should be helping the people out big style with immediate aid

 

Someone has actually started a crowd-funding thing.

 

If every person in the EC paid 3 euros Greece could meet their immediate needs and 300 euros would pay off their debts completely. 

 

unfortunately those that can most afford 300 Euros are those least likely to give 3 Euros never mind 300 Euros

 

 

And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living. :) 

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for those interested in this situation, maybe they should consider reading up on the London agreement of 1953 and the very favourable (for Germany) restructuring of Germany's debt post war.

 

yes Germany was dealing with a post war situation, but then isn't Greece along most of the world being subjected to a covert finacial war? Not a war fought with guns and tanks to grab land, but finacial tools like inflation and usury to grab physical Assets on the cheep.

But just like any war, it's the average men and women that are being asked to bear the greatest cost

Edited by mockingbird_franklin
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Setting aside the political parties of this will be the humanitarian crisis about to happen when food shortages medicine shortages start happening. As European brothers we should be helping the people out big style with immediate aid

 

Someone has actually started a crowd-funding thing.

 

If every person in the EC paid 3 euros Greece could meet their immediate needs and 300 euros would pay off their debts completely. 

 

unfortunately those that can most afford 300 Euros are those least likely to give 3 Euros never mind 300 Euros

 

 

And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living. :) 

 

It's almost as though, some of the stories in the bible, whilst not proven original literal historical fact, might be trying to give us some sort of general code to live by that would overall improve things for people. 

It's such a shame we can't filter the ones which are still relevant and ignore the ones which were more relevant to one time and place.

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The IMF's own research report concluded earlier this week that the only answer for Greece is a huge debt write down (creditor haircut), although the IMF's own Board led by Legarde refuse to entertain the idea of loses to its members.  Interestingly the Eurogroup tried (and failed) to suppress publication of the report, which is unsurprising given that it highlights the utter failure of the EU institutions to develop proposals that may actually help Greece, including their latest massively flawed incarnation which are now subject to a Greek referendum.

 

The Eurogroup knows all this of course, but their intention has always been to churn money bailout money through the Greek economy and back onto the balance sheets of lenders - first private banks and now the ECB.  Actually fixing Greece is not and patently never has been the priority here. Worst case scenario for the Eurogroup is a Greek exit followed by their swift economic recovery. What then for Italy, Spain, Portugal et al?  Holding the EZ sham together is the over riding priority, political hubris versus economic reality.     

 

I hope the Greeks tell the Troika to hoop it.  Yes it will hurt initially but they are hurting anyway, Euro exit and recovery is the only viable option and should have happened in 2010 - there was a pretty big thread about it at the time - because the alternative is being locked into an economic death spiral. The austerity measures initiated then were supposed to turn things around, instead they have led to a 25% drop in Greek GDP.  That's a worse outcome than during the Great Depression in the 1930's and that it hasn't already resulted in wholesale bloody revolution reflects very well on the Greek people and their level of fortitude.   

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The worst failure of the IMF is their continuing point blank refusal to listen to any of the work coming out of their own Research Department. 

 

That's a constant theme across most governments too. 

 

Spend loads  of money on research or advisors, then ignore anything that comes from it unless its a vote winner or suits those in charge. 

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