chrisp65 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, mjmooney said: This is correct. The two stances taken above (it's one of the most influential books in human history AND it's a jumble of irrelevant bits of propaganda) are in no way mutually exclusive. As an anthology of historical literature I find it absolutely fascinating; as a theological rulebook, not at all. It simply cannot be followed as a literal rule book, far too many contradictions from the outset. Once good education was democratised, it's time as a tool to control the masses by the elite was always going to be finite. Hence much of the 'need' to evangelise to more far flung corners. Information is power. As a self help guide, it can be really really good. If you select the right bits. If that's what floats your goat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 7, 2019 Moderator Share Posted June 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, Rodders said: but it is hard to say it is not hugely influential big difference between hugeley and the most 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, bickster said: More people have lived in the last 100 years than have ever lived in the history of the human race, so I'm going for the Communist Manifesto being as there are 1.5 Billion people in China alone (directly living under the influence of a form of communism) and about 2 Billion Chistians in the world but many of those Christians are of the type that really don't let their religion get in the way of what they want to do and largely ignore it because saying they are is just an easy label for themselves. then you'd have to shout for the Koran given there are 1.6 Billion Muslims in worrld and Muslims tend to be much more devout that Christians Saying the Bible is the most influential or important book in the world is just looking from a Western Christian perspective. The claim is nonsense Ok, but not all Chinese are communists. And some that claim they are, will be running capitalist enterprises. I think it's not about the number of "believers" or "followers". Koran has been influenced by the bible - in fact it mentions Mary more times than the new testament. In a way, the communist manifesto has also been influenced by the bible once you accept that Marx was a philosopher that has been founding his knowledge on people like Kant. It's a moral, political book which was founded in the Western thought. You don't have to like the bible. You don't have to believe the bible. But it's reach in modern culture is undeniably everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 7, 2019 Moderator Share Posted June 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Mic09 said: Ok, but not all Chinese are communists All Chinese live under communism is the point, it matters not what they personally believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, bickster said: More people have lived in the last 100 years than have ever lived in the history of the human race, so I'm going for the Communist Manifesto being as there are 1.5 Billion people in China alone (directly living under the influence of a form of communism) and about 2 Billion Chistians in the world but many of those Christians are of the type that really don't let their religion get in the way of what they want to do and largely ignore it because saying they are is just an easy label for themselves. then you'd have to shout for the Koran given there are 1.6 Billion Muslims in worrld and Muslims tend to be much more devout that Christians Saying the Bible is the most influential or important book in the world is just looking from a Western Christian perspective. The claim is nonsense I'd say the Americas have been totally shaped by the Bible. By shaped, I include annihilated. Where once you'd have had civilisations like the Inca and Aztec, or north american tribes, they were simply bulldozed away. Utterly replaced by the american dollar that includes the words 'In God We Trust'. It's not purely a 'western' perspective to look at the influence throughout Africa. Currently 95 million christians in Nigeria alone (slightly more than muslims, I googled it!). There are 1.3 billion people in Africa, it would be hard to say the bible hasn't influenced the shape and prospects of Africa, regardless of whether the people are religious or not. So Africa roughly matches China. Then we can lob in the Americas and Europe and the Middle East (their combined total, approx 2 billion). Look at all that conflict across the middle east. From the holy wars and crusades to the creation of Israel and Saudi Arabia, the influence of 'christian' western countries is what is behind much of that rolling conflict throughout that region. I can't think of anything closer than the communist manifesto and / or the little red book. But I don't think it's had the same global impact. Edited June 7, 2019 by chrisp65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 37 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Ok - book of a boy fighting evil, sacrificing himself to save his friends and loved ones against all odds. Book where people believe in supernatural and mythical and where symbolism runs so deep, it reaches the foundations of what we perceive as good and bad. His father and mother have given their life to save Harry. Sounds a bit like a story that was covered in the bible a long time ago. Bloody spoilers for the Bible... 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 7, 2019 Moderator Share Posted June 7, 2019 The estimates worldwide are 2 Billion Christians - 1.6 Billion Muslims Population of China alone (not counting any other country that has been communist, socialist etc) is currently 1.5 Billion History is almost irrelevant when it comes to sheer physical numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 Just now, bickster said: The estimates worldwide are 2 Billion Christians - 1.6 Billion Muslims Population of China alone (not counting any other country that has been communist, socialist etc) is currently 1.5 Billion History is almost irrelevant when it comes to sheer physical numbers I don't think it was about who has the most supporters, I don't think it was a body count, but I do get how that comes in to it. Not least now they're building roads and railways to africa and europe. My understanding was global influence 'so far' - but I accept I might just have made up my own definition and run with it. I'd say from the Crusades to Spanish Gold to Papal decrees on abortion and birth control, to the American dream, there's more influence there, than from Mao and Marx. But utterly debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted June 7, 2019 Moderator Share Posted June 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: I don't think it was about who has the most supporters, I don't think it was a body count, but I do get how that comes in to it. Not least now they're building roads and railways to africa and europe. My understanding was global influence 'so far' - but I accept I might just have made up my own definition and run with it. I'd say from the Crusades to Spanish Gold to Papal decrees on abortion and birth control, to the American dream, there's more influence there, than from Mao and Marx. But utterly debatable. more people = more influence surely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 Just now, bickster said: more people = more influence surely But on body count, africa, america, europe and the middle east have double the population of China. China has been, until very recently, very insular. 'Christian' based societies have generally been invading interfering nuisances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 The indigenous peoples of The Congo, Mexico, Peru etc may not use the word 'nuisance'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Rodders said: embuggerance OT but if nothing else Rodders taught me a new word today. Carry on. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted June 7, 2019 Share Posted June 7, 2019 2 hours ago, mjmooney said: As an anthology of historical literature I find it absolutely fascinating In Masonry the Old Testament is basically a book of magical spells. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted August 2, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted August 2, 2019 Bold claims from the Archbishop of Cyprus: Quote A bishop from Cyprus caused controversy this week with his statements on homosexuality and abortion, forcing the government and the head of the church of Cyprus, Archbishop Chrysostomos, to condemn his views. Morphou Bishop Neophytos stirred widespread anger when he claimed during a lecture in June, that homosexuality is transferred to unborn children if a pregnant woman has anal sex. The bishop’s remarks were only made public this week. A further snippet revealed that the clergyman had also said in the past that gay men had a “nasty smell.” In the same speech, the bishop also stated: “A country that carries out so many abortions and murders its children, is it impossible that a murderer could be among us?” These latter comments were made in light of the murders committed on Cyprus by the serial killer Nicos Metaxas. The bishop said it was hypocritical to be saddened by the death of two children killed by Metaxas when Cyprus carries out so many abortions. Metaxas was earlier this summer sentenced to seven life sentences for killing five foreign women as well as two young girls. Government spokesman Prodromos Prodromou said the government was “greatly troubled and dismayed” by the comments linking homosexuality to heterosexuals having anal sex, which have brought condemnation of the Bishop on social media. Prodromou said the remarks clash with Cyprus’ laws protecting the rights of all its citizens, and that they “insult the dignity and injure the reputation” of many people and should be retracted. The spokesman also said that the country’s human rights commissioner also considers the remarks discriminatory. Archbishop Chrysostomos said that the controversial statements on homosexuality made by Bishop Neophytos “do not represent” him. The head of the church of Cyprus told daily newspaper Politis that the bishop’s opinions “do not represent him. They are clearly his personal opinions.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 13 hours ago, choffer said: Bold claims from the Archbishop of Cyprus: Cyprus was a part of Ancient Greece. A pioneer in expression, philosophy and freedom. How far we've come. *shakes head with disapproval* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 On 08/06/2019 at 03:00, VILLAMARV said: OT but if nothing else Rodders taught me a new word today. Carry on. Me too. I thought it meant something to do with sheep shagging, due to the bugger part of it. But noooo, it's actually a fancy word with quite an important meaning. How disappointing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choffer Posted October 3, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 3, 2019 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 Tsk, I expected that to be about Jeff Wright of Wrightbus and Green Pastures Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mjmooney Posted October 26, 2019 Author VT Supporter Popular Post Share Posted October 26, 2019 8 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 26, 2019 Moderator Share Posted October 26, 2019 @mjmooneythat is hilariously good 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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